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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 1:52:56 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
People have been killing people over stupid things since the beginning of time; it did not start with the legalization of abortion. It didn't even start in this country with the legalization of abortion. Armed duels were once considered a gentlemanly way of settling arguments. Criminals were executed for stealing. So should we advocate killing just because it has gone on, or should we enact laws in order to punish murders? Should we prosecute thieves, or just hand them our stuff and ask them if they want more?
Did I say that?
I'm only arguing against the notion that the legalization of abortion has caused this country to devalue life. I think that's a significant overstatement of the overall cultural impact of abortion.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 2:09:42 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3417
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From: a mother who let me live
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quote:
I'm only arguing against the notion that the legalization of abortion has caused this country to devalue life. I think that's a significant overstatement of the overall cultural impact of abortion.
-Dan.
How, then, can we state that over 40 million children have been murdered since Roe V Wade, so that it is not an overstatement on the devaluation of life.
Or another site says that 49 million preborn children have been murdered.
Or how can we state that Oregon, Washington, and some other states have devalued life such that they now have legalized doctor-assisted suicide, so that it is not an overstatement regarding the devaluation of life?
Or how can we state that born children who are unwanted are left in cold, dirty surgical basins to die without help, without food so that it does not overstate that life has been devalued?
How can we state, without making an overstatement with regard to the devaluation of life, that surgical tools are inserted into the wombs of women in order th rip, tear, and dismember living children who feel those cuts and rips until they die?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 3:22:57 PM
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Mark328
Posts: 200
Joined: 8/9/2008
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There's a long way to go before abortions can be significantly reduced and/or eliminated:
Overturning Roe V. Wade alone will NOT reduce the number.
Changes in adoption laws will need to be made as well, in order to make adoption easier and cheaper (especially in these economic times).
Change the culture in this country to where unwed pregnancy isn't considered disgraceful (sinful, sure; disgraceful, absolutely not!). THIS will be much easier said than done.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 4:42:43 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
I'm only arguing against the notion that the legalization of abortion has caused this country to devalue life. I think that's a significant overstatement of the overall cultural impact of abortion.
-Dan.
How, then, can we state that over 40 million children have been murdered since Roe V Wade, so that it is not an overstatement on the devaluation of life.
Or another site says that 49 million preborn children have been murdered.
Or how can we state that Oregon, Washington, and some other states have devalued life such that they now have legalized doctor-assisted suicide, so that it is not an overstatement regarding the devaluation of life?
Or how can we state that born children who are unwanted are left in cold, dirty surgical basins to die without help, without food so that it does not overstate that life has been devalued?
How can we state, without making an overstatement with regard to the devaluation of life, that surgical tools are inserted into the wombs of women in order th rip, tear, and dismember living children who feel those cuts and rips until they die?
You're preaching to the choir. I'm not arguing for abortion. I'm as pro-life as anybody.
In Post #66, Acts29 tried to blame an overall devaluation of human life on the legalization of abortion. The point I was trying to make was that I think, aside from abortion, our society has, overall, become more sensitive to and appreciative of life. Regarding abortion, I don't think that most pro-choice people accept the notion that a pre-viable fetus is human life. I don't agree with them, but it's pretty hard to devalue something that you don't think qualifies for devaluing in the first place. Because of this, I think it's pretty hard to blame abortion for all of society's woes. I think abortion is a symptom, not a cause.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 4:53:22 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2942
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Covaan_Meshuga and Acts29  tell it like it is!
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 5:08:10 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3417
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From: a mother who let me live
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iluvatar --
I don't know, at this point, anything about what another has written in post 66, and your post 76 was written to me, since it answered my post. What I have written here is that we knew that if they enacted laws that allowed the murder of unborn chhildren, they would sink lower and lower. And they have. And our country will be severely judged for it.
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Thank you, P31W. 
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 5:19:54 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5771
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
My point is, should government criminalize abortions and put women considering abortions in jail until they have their babies and then put the babies in the foster system?
Great idea Evangel70, sounds like a winner to me.
Maybe one of those illegetimate children will grow uo to be President and save the World.
Worked for Obama.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 5:37:46 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
What I have written here is that we knew that if they enacted laws that allowed the murder of unborn chhildren, they would sink lower and lower. And they have.
That goes back to the point Acts29 was trying to make - that since abortion was legalized, society has degraded.
What I want to know is HOW? How has legalizing abortion taken us down some slippery slope?
I contend that we're no better or worse than we've ever been; we're just different. In some areas, our society has tried to correct past faults while in others, it's more prone to debauchery.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 6:19:08 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3417
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From: a mother who let me live
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Again, abortion is not the cause of the world going to hell in the proverbial handbasket; it is an indicator. I sincerely regret that I have not been able to convey this message. I don't know how else to write it. Forgive my ineptness at expressing myself in writing.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 6:24:40 PM
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writerchick
Posts: 222
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Again, abortion is not the cause of the world going to hell in the proverbial handbasket; it is an indicator. I sincerely regret that I have not been able to convey this message. I don't know how else to write it. Forgive my ineptness at expressing myself in writing.
So don't you think it would be more effective to treat the cause instead of the symptom only?
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 6:29:58 PM
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Acts29
Posts: 374
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
What I have written here is that we knew that if they enacted laws that allowed the murder of unborn chhildren, they would sink lower and lower. And they have.
That goes back to the point Acts29 was trying to make - that since abortion was legalized, society has degraded.
What I want to know is HOW? How has legalizing abortion taken us down some slippery slope?
I contend that we're no better or worse than we've ever been; we're just different. In some areas, our society has tried to correct past faults while in others, it's more prone to debauchery.
-Dan.
It puts into question at what point does a life have value?
Yes, I do believe that homocides, rapes, murders, etc....has increased significantly since the legalization of abortion. I do believe it was the line in the sand between church and state. The state it is O.K. the church says it is not. Do you know of another law that divides the church and the state. The state agrees that murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, adultery is wrong, rape is wrong. What other law divideds the church and state? There is another one coming regarding same sex marriage. That one has not occurred ....yet
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 6:36:18 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3417
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Again, abortion is not the cause of the world going to hell in the proverbial handbasket; it is an indicator. I sincerely regret that I have not been able to convey this message. I don't know how else to write it. Forgive my ineptness at expressing myself in writing.
So don't you think it would be more effective to treat the cause instead of the symptom only?
Apparently, it is not known that people are working to "treat the cause." Many of us are doing our best to reach out, to help, to give, to instruct, etc. Each one of us who are concerned about this area do what we can, in the ways we can, to "treat the cause." Would you like to learn about some of the ways you can help?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 7:07:48 PM
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Evangel70
Posts: 550
Joined: 10/28/2006
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quote:
Maybe one of those illegetimate children will grow uo to be President and save the World.
Worked for Obama.
Thanks
RC
WOW. Such hatred for a man you don't even know. Obama's parent's were married and therefore he was not "illegitamate.
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 7:10:51 PM
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writerchick
Posts: 222
Joined: 10/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Acts29
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
What I have written here is that we knew that if they enacted laws that allowed the murder of unborn chhildren, they would sink lower and lower. And they have.
That goes back to the point Acts29 was trying to make - that since abortion was legalized, society has degraded.
What I want to know is HOW? How has legalizing abortion taken us down some slippery slope?
I contend that we're no better or worse than we've ever been; we're just different. In some areas, our society has tried to correct past faults while in others, it's more prone to debauchery.
-Dan.
It puts into question at what point does a life have value?
Yes, I do believe that homocides, rapes, murders, etc....has increased significantly since the legalization of abortion. I do believe it was the line in the sand between church and state. The state it is O.K. the church says it is not. Do you know of another law that divides the church and the state. The state agrees that murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, adultery is wrong, rape is wrong. What other law divideds the church and state? There is another one coming regarding same sex marriage. That one has not occurred ....yet
The state doesn't punish adulterers. And what happened to there being nothing new under the sun? When you look at the numbers are you accounting for the increased size of the population with the proper standard deviations?
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 7:18:38 PM
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Evangel70
Posts: 550
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
Those of you who believe abortion is the most important issue, what exactly do you expect a president to do to prevent abortions? I thought republicans were for less government intrusion in the personal lives of individuals yet it seems that many would like the government to take away the rights of individuals to make bad decision (i.e. get abortions).
That's because some people consider the life of the unborn... Interesting that your view completely ignores the unborn and their plight...
Rather than try to deflect, why not answer the question or admit that you have no answer to the question of what YOU expect a president to do to prevent abortions?
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
My point is, should government criminalize abortions and put women considering abortions in jail until they have their babies and then put the babies in the foster system?
It's complete hypocrisy to charge people with murder outside the womb and sanction it inside the womb...
No, it's complete hypocrisy to blame "the government" for the behavior of individuals and balk at the idea of putting the actual murderers (those SEEKING abortions) in jail.
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 10:06:10 PM
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jbow
Posts: 629
Joined: 2/16/2007
From: Dixie
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Abortion is not the #1 issue for me. Judicial nominations is #1. A president is not going to change Roe v Wade except by appointing the right judges and then all it will do is put the issue back to the states. We just need judges who will rule according to the constitution and according to law. I never want a judge who tries to make law. All I want a judge to do is rule according to the law and the constitution. Then the matter will take care of itself.
The best thing we can do is to start to pray more. I bet most of us spend more time eating than we do praying. I usually do... and both me and others are the worse for it.
J
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 10:54:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
You're preaching to the choir. I'm not arguing for abortion. I'm as pro-life as anybody.
...who voted for the pro-abortion candidate...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 10:56:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Again, abortion is not the cause of the world going to hell in the proverbial handbasket; it is an indicator. I sincerely regret that I have not been able to convey this message. I don't know how else to write it. Forgive my ineptness at expressing myself in writing.
So don't you think it would be more effective to treat the cause instead of the symptom only?
You can't convince people that murdering the unborn(their own flesh and blood) is wrong and you wish to deal with fornication?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/7/2008 11:03:21 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
Rather than try to deflect,
The only ones deflecting are those who believe God doesn't have a vested interest in all this...
quote:
why not answer the question or admit that you have no answer to the question of what YOU expect a president to do to prevent abortions?
I would expect a man of God to obey God first and even those who don't believe are held accountable, I answered the question... You don't think so because you have no regard for life inside the womb, where others do...
quote:
No, it's complete hypocrisy to blame "the government" for the behavior of individuals
The government assume part of the blame when they sanction bad behavior...
quote:
and balk at the idea of putting the actual murderers (those SEEKING abortions) in jail.
I have no problem with the above being dealt with accordingly...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/8/2008 10:15:45 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Acts29
Yes, I do believe that homocides, rapes, murders, etc....has increased significantly since the legalization of abortion.
The problem with that is that you're assuming causation from correlation. Yes, violent crime rates did rise after Roe-v-Wade, but they were also rising before that, peaked around 1991 and have since fallen to what they were in the late 70's. Abortion rates peaked in the early 80's and have fallen since then.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/8/2008 10:46:34 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3463
Joined: 4/11/2005
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You know, I stood in the shower and wept, outloud for the babies the day after Obama was elected. I was thinking I wonder, if the try and cry when their brains are sucked out, and their skulls collapse. Do you realize how painful this must be? all forms of abortion, but especially late term. If a person has no feeling, for these helpless infants, then they IMHO are in a reprobate state of the soul. Hearod and pharaoh remind me of Obama. How could anyone, who knows Jesus loves children put this man in power?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/8/2008 12:13:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Acts29
Yes, I do believe that homocides, rapes, murders, etc....has increased significantly since the legalization of abortion.
The problem with that is that you're assuming causation from correlation. Yes, violent crime rates did rise after Roe-v-Wade, but they were also rising before that, peaked around 1991 and have since fallen to what they were in the late 70's. Abortion rates peaked in the early 80's and have fallen since then.
Anyone who thinks that the murder of 3000+ unborn children daily since 1973 doesn't have anything to do with the general lack of regard for life can stand in the rain and say they are not getting wet...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/8/2008 3:03:37 PM
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gracen77
Posts: 66
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
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Lightshineon,
Re: How could anyone, who knows Jesus loves
children put this man in power?
Why did Jesus chose Paul on the road to Damascus
on his way to kill more Christians - men, women
AND children? Why did Obama receive more of the
Protestant, Catholic, etc. votes than McCain? Why
even since Obama promises to tax those that are
making over $250,000. get a larger amount of their
votes than McCain who would give them a tax cut?
So many things to consider as to why, though I know.
Now, I am definitely not in favor of abortion. Yet,
I wouldn't be alive today if Roe vs Wade didn't exist.
What the answer is, I just choose to pray about it.
It's very hard for me though I would never have, if
given an opportunity, changed 'my' decision 'at the
time' as seen at http://www.nobaq.com "my abortion".
Yet, since the Lord sent us Word that we go from
faith to faith, perhaps 'today', would be different.
However, the Lord allowed it before I arrived here.
I would NEVER had done it that way if I were God.
I'm not:) So, I accept that His ways are not ours as
told us in Isaiah 55:8,9. MUCH I don't 'fully' understand,
yet. One day we will. Til then, Holy Spirit reveals as
God chooses.
_____________________________
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.
How: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp1xBUFjEB0
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RE: Why is abortion number 1? - 11/8/2008 3:16:27 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3463
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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igrace77, well I am glad you are here. I will say Obama is wicked, and he is in power because, we have the choice to choose life or death. Why did Obama recieve more votes is because people are tricked by the wiles of the devil. Do you think satan would come as an angel of light, or mean, red cape pitch fork? Obama cares so much about creation we cannot do off-shore drilling, clean coal etc. ect., but God called us humans special and good made in his image. So though he thinks torture is bad, the enviroment not be destroyed, this man of perdition does not care if God's ultimate creation made in the Fathers image is destroyed, in a torture like procedures we would never be allowed to use on our worst enemy. If we did that to our cats and dogs we would be arrested. There is a scripture in the Bible I think in Matthew, that say angels are always looking in to the face of God, ready to act, on those that hurt his little ones. I am not decieved by obama the Beast, peace and may God bless you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gracen77
Lightshineon,
Re: How could anyone, who knows Jesus loves
children put this man in power?
Why did Jesus chose Paul on the road to Damascus
on his way to kill more Christians - men, women
AND children? Why did Obama receive more of the
Protestant, Catholic, etc. votes than McCain? Why
even since Obama promises to tax those that are
making over $250,000. get a larger amount of their
votes than McCain who would give them a tax cut?
So many things to consider as to why, though I know.
Now, I am definitely not in favor of abortion. Yet,
I wouldn't be alive today if Roe vs Wade didn't exist.
What the answer is, I just choose to pray about it.
It's very hard for me though I would never have, if
given an opportunity, changed 'my' decision 'at the
time' as seen at http://www.nobaq.com "my abortion".
Yet, since the Lord sent us Word that we go from
faith to faith, perhaps 'today', would be different.
However, the Lord allowed it before I arrived here.
I would NEVER had done it that way if I were God.
I'm not:) So, I accept that His ways are not ours as
told us in Isaiah 55:8,9. MUCH I don't 'fully' understand,
yet. One day we will. Til then, Holy Spirit reveals as
God chooses.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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