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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 8:33:27 AM
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JStucki76
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
As I said, I understand that many people on these forums feel the way you do. Outside of these forums, not so much.
OUtside of these forums???? Do you realize how few people are on these forums? If your statement were true there would be about 100 pro-lifers in the country.
I'm not going to treat it as a dead issue just because most of the country does. If I felt that way, I would abandon Christianity altogether. If it's wrong, it's wrong. It's never going to become right, so therefore I can never ignore it.
Having said that, I do agree that the message needs to change. What I think needs to happen is that the rhetoric and ad hoc arguments on the pro-choice side need to be exposed for what they are. For example, there's actually a very small risk indeed of girls resorting to "coat-hanger abortions." Extremely small. Almost not worth mentioning. But the pro-choice lobby has made it a huge argument. Even then, it's still a "two wrongs make a right" kind of argument, and doesn't hold any water.
Also, there needs to be someone in the political arena who clearly and calmly asks, "what is the moral difference between a fetus and a five year old?
That is the issue in a nutshell. The pro-choice lobby insists on a woman's right to choose. The pro-life argument is that abortion is murder and therefore choice is irrelevant. You make your choice when you choose to have sex--everyone knows that pregnancy is one possible outcome.
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 9:39:10 AM
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laura...
Posts: 2921
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From: NE Ohio
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No, It's not dead. This is just one battle lost. It may just mean a shift in battle fields.
quote:
What on earth are you talking about? Bush signed the ban on partial birth abortion, a huge stride in the pro-life movement, which sadly Nobama will overturn once he signs FOCA. Knowledge is key.
I heard a woman from Right to Life on the radio last night talking about what will happen if Obama signs FOCA. She said if he signs that act it will be a Constitutional crisis as he will be overstepping the limits that the US Constitution places on the POTUS. Lawsuits will immediately be filed with the Supreme Court.
It's not a done deal folks.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 9:43:32 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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What gets me wondering incredulously is that here we are in the 21st century, with all our technology, developments, etc... and...
We are trying to decide when exactly does a person become a person.
_____________________________
Just give us peace, Lord.
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 9:56:51 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I heard a woman from Right to Life on the radio last night talking about what will happen if Obama signs FOCA. She said if he signs that act it will be a Constitutional crisis as he will be overstepping the limits that the US Constitution places on the POTUS. Lawsuits will immediately be filed with the Supreme Court.
It's not a done deal folks.
I would have been interested to hear that, because I can't imagine what she would have based that on. Roe pretty much grants all the rights contained in FOCA, and is the product of a court that claimed the Constitution guarantees the right to an abortion. FOCA simply ensconces that ruling in law to bullet-proof it against a Supreme Court change.
In short, once FOCA passes, there would be no basis for such a lawsuit. Once FOCA is signed, repealing abortion in this country automatically becomes at least a three, possibly more, level process, requiring the simultaneous ability to change Federal Law (which would require winning a super-majority in Congress), a Supreme Court Ruling (which would require electing a strong pro-life Presidential candidate), and state law. It will be more iron-clad in American jurisprudence than even slavery was before the Civil War. Our country did not solve the slavery issue politically, and we will not be going to war over abortion because there are no 'sides'.
It will no longer be a viable position for a candidate to run on, and it will no longer be a substantive issue in campaigns going forward.
I am just being real with you as someone who has been involved in the fight against abortion for over twenty years. It is almost certainly a 'done deal' in our lifetimes.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:01:54 AM
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laura...
Posts: 2921
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I heard a woman from Right to Life on the radio last night talking about what will happen if Obama signs FOCA. She said if he signs that act it will be a Constitutional crisis as he will be overstepping the limits that the US Constitution places on the POTUS. Lawsuits will immediately be filed with the Supreme Court.
It's not a done deal folks.
I would have been interested to hear that, because I can't imagine what she would have based that on. Roe pretty much grants all the rights contained in FOCA, and is the product of a court that claimed the Constitution guarantees the right to an abortion. FOCA simply ensconces that ruling in law to bullet-proof it against a Supreme Court change.
In short, once FOCA passes, there would be no basis for such a lawsuit. Once FOCA is signed, repealing abortion in this country automatically becomes at least a three, possibly more, level process, requiring the simultaneous ability to change Federal Law (which would require winning a super-majority in Congress), a Supreme Court Ruling (which would require electing a strong pro-life Presidential candidate), and state law. It will be more iron-clad in American jurisprudence than even slavery was before the Civil War. Our country did not solve the slavery issue politically, and we will not be going to war over abortion because there are no 'sides'.
It will no longer be a viable position for a candidate to run on, and it will no longer be a substantive issue in campaigns going forward.
I am just being real with you as someone who has been involved in the fight against abortion for over twenty years. It is almost certainly a 'done deal' in our lifetimes.
From what I got from the radio interview... The POTUS cannot legislate and signing FOCA would be legislating.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:04:13 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
From what I got from the radio interview... The POTUS cannot legislate and signing FOCA would be legislating.
He wouldn't be legislating, he would simply be signing a law passed by Congress, which is what all President's do.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:10:38 AM
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catfighter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
What gets me wondering incredulously is that here we are in the 21st century, with all our technology, developments, etc... and...
We are trying to decide when exactly does a person become a person.
That's because the question is a philosophical one, not a scientific or technological one.
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:10:56 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2007
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: worthaboverubies
Why do you think this? From my understanding Ron Paul is more of an isolationist. I don't think you dems would have liked him at all.
I think that the bolded part is an assumption that needs to change. I'm not a Democrat; I just voted Democrat
Here's why I voted the way I did:
1.) $10 Trillion in debt. Since Democrats are going to raise my taxes, it seems more likely that a Democratic president will leave us with less debt in four years than a Republican.
2.) A $200 Billion/year war that was costing the US lots of money.
3.) A federal government that wanted to listen to my phone calls.
If Republicans had addressed these issues better than Obama, I would have voted for them.
quote:
Life begins at conception. There is no other christian position in this reguard. None.
If I were a Democrat, I would hope you continued to share this view and scare everyone away from voting Republican. However, since I'm a Christian, I think this is a view that needs to be corrected. The ONLY totalitarian view in the church is that Jesus is the Way, Truth, and Life. People who have the wrong view on abortion are misguided or incorrect, but abortion doesn't have the same level of direct correlation to theology that our understanding of Christ's life and teachings have. Abortion isn't the same kind of theological issue as the divinity of the Holy Spirit, the ressurection, or even Calvinism vs. Arminianism.
Even if you disagree with me, you'll note that this argument simply doesn't work on a majority of the population. If you want change, you have to come up with a rational argument against abortion, rather than just revert to the dogmatic "There is no other Christian position in this regard. None."
quote:
Abortion colors a politician like no other issue. A pro-abortion candidate has no respect for life. Considers self to be more important than sacrifice. Puts irresponsibility above personal responsibility.
Another dogmatic statement. Rather, a pro-abortion candidate simply misses the bigger picture. He does not understand that the only difference between many unborn children and what the law terms human beings is whether it is inside or outside its mother's womb. A fetus in the second trimester has a heart, has brain cells, even has consciousness, and as we move into the 21st Century, we need to have a more comprehensive understanding of human life than what pro-abortion candidates can offer.
quote:
Its a huge issue. Probably, the biggest.
There's plenty of huge issues. Again, I see a blanket statement here without an argument to back it up. You assume that all of us agree with you on this, but what we're really looking for is an argument as to why it's a huge issue. Maybe it's a huge issue because our understanding of human life is what keeps us a civil culture; without laws on murder, culture couldn't really exist. And if we're to going to remain a civil culture, we really need a consistent understanding of what it means to be human, especially with all of the technology we're going to see in the next 50 years. That's why, at the very least, we should consider everything with a human brain a human being. That includes unborn babies.
This could be one argument you could make; maybe YOU can come up with a better one, but you need to stay light on the axioms.
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:15:50 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
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quote:
That's because the question is a philosophical one, not a scientific or technological one.
I agree it is primarily a philosophical one (as are all political and social considerations) but it is also a biological one, and biologically there is less support today for the notion that humans become humans at birth than there might have been in the past.
And the fact that it is primarily philosophical does not reduce it's import; indeed, all considerations of fundamental importance are primarily philosophical.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:20:05 AM
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catfighter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
That's because the question is a philosophical one, not a scientific or technological one.
I agree it is primarily a philosophical one (as are all political and social considerations) but it is also a biological one, and biologically there is less support today for the notion that humans become humans at birth than there might have been in the past.
It's only a biological one if you can define the precise instant or biological process in which a zygote becomes a person. The process of conception takes minutes and involves thousands of biological processes.
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:24:25 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
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quote:
It's only a biological one if you can define the precise instant or biological process in which a zygote becomes a person. The process of conception takes minutes and involves thousands of biological processes.
No one has an abortion within minutes after conceiving; the point is moot.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:25:23 AM
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Zhi
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I think that if the Republicans think that pro-life is a dead issue and put a pro-choice candidate up in 5 years, they will be truly and utterly astonished at how much they lose by that election.
We shall see. *shrug*
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:25:49 AM
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laura...
Posts: 2921
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
It's only a biological one if you can define the precise instant or biological process in which a zygote becomes a person. The process of conception takes minutes and involves thousands of biological processes.
No one has an abortion within minutes after conceiving; the point is moot.
Not when you consider the morning after pill.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:29:17 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2238
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From: Southwest Louisiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
What gets me wondering incredulously is that here we are in the 21st century, with all our technology, developments, etc... and...
We are trying to decide when exactly does a person become a person.
They know when, many just refuse to see it. 4D ultrasound has been able show just how well developed a first trimester baby is much earlier than previously thought.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:30:01 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
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quote:
Not when you consider the morning after pill.
I suppose it's conceivable that some women have these on hand and immediately take them upon the occurrence that they might have done something to conceive, but I am guessing the number that do this is exceedingly small; I mean the name itself implies that a woman would not do this until the next morning, long after conception has occurred.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:32:33 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
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quote:
I think that if the Republicans think that pro-life is a dead issue and put a pro-choice candidate up in 5 years, they will be truly and utterly astonished at how much they lose by that election.
We shall see. *shrug*
Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't think that a candidate will call themselves 'pro-choice', simply that being pro-life as a Presidential candidate will be irrelevant. What difference would it make if said candidate can literally do nothing to change the situation? They could call themselves anything they want.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:34:05 AM
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laura...
Posts: 2921
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From: NE Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: catfighter
I looks like none of the anti-abortion ballot initiatives are going to pass.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/ballot.measures/
Which is why I think the main battlefield needs to change. Even if the Supreme Court overturns Roe vs. Wade, many states will pass legislation to allow abortion. I know that many states have anti abortion legislation in place now that is null and void due to Roe vs. Wade but I believe that would change rapidly if Roe vs. Wade disappeared.
While the legal battles need to continue, the fight for Life needs to focus more and more on changing the public's perception of when life begins and the value of that life.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:37:43 AM
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laura...
Posts: 2921
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Not when you consider the morning after pill.
I suppose it's conceivable that some women have these on hand and immediately take them upon the occurrence that they might have done something to conceive, but I am guessing the number that do this is exceedingly small; I mean the name itself implies that a woman would not do this until the next morning, long after conception has occurred.
Conception doesn't necessarily happen the moment a couple has intercourse. Conception can happen up to 72 hours after intercourse.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:40:49 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Conception doesn't necessarily happen the moment a couple has intercourse. Conception can happen up to 72 hours after intercourse.
Well, it's still picking at nits; if conception hasn't occurred, there is no zygote. The issue I was addressing was the short period wherein the zygote is forming.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:42:08 AM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 693
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quote:
No one has an abortion within minutes after conceiving; the point is moot.
This is why I think that, in the future, abortion will become a moot point. Within the next ten years there will be pills or other at-home medical treatments that WILL be able to abort a fetus within minutes of conceiving. Cheap and easy access to something like this could pretty much make abortion a non-issue.
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:48:00 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
This is why I think that, in the future, abortion will become a moot point. Within the next ten years there will be pills or other at-home medical treatments that WILL be able to abort a fetus within minutes of conceiving. Cheap and easy access to something like this could pretty much make abortion a non-issue.
Well if the abortion is occuring within minutes after concieving, then it's not a fetus that is being aborted. And we already have the technology to make abortion a moot point; it's called birth control, which apparently about a million women a year seem incapable of using.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:51:03 AM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 693
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quote:
Well if the abortion is occuring within minutes after concieving, then it's not a fetus that is being aborted. And we already have the technology to make abortion a moot point; it's called birth control, which apparently about a million women a year seem incapable of using.
So it's not a person from the moment of conception? I thought that was the party line, so to speak, for so many people here.
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 10:55:23 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
So it's not a person from the moment of conception? I thought that was the party line, so to speak, for so many people here.
No, it's not a fetus from the moment of conception. Fetus is a biological stage of development.
It is by all reasonable accounts a human from conception, and presumably all humans are persons.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Is abortion a dead issue? - 11/5/2008 11:08:49 AM
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everythingat
Posts: 270
Joined: 2/21/2008
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One thing that was interesting about this election was abortion on the ballots in Colorado and South Dakota.
Colorado was blue.
South Dakota was red.
They voted down making abortion illegal or in South Dakota's case, putting limitations on it.
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