quote:

ORIGINAL: henny

I don't think abortion has ever been a major issue, or at least not for the past 20 years or so.

There's a portion of people who feel strongly about it on either side of the debate, but the vast majority of people will not consider it at all in choosing a candidate.

This was as true under Bush as it is under Obama.

Bush didn't win because he's pro-life anymore than Obama won because he's pro-choice. Their pro-life/choice stances certainly influenced groups of people to vote for them either way, but it was never the deciding factor.

So, yes there will be viable pro-life candidates in the future. This isn't necessarily because the vast majority of people will be pro-life, however, as much as it is because I don't think that it is a make or break issue for most people when deciding who to vote for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

The support given to George W. Bush on grounds he is "pro-life" and the criticisms towards Barack Obama on grounds he is "pro-death" are quite odd considering that Bush's war on Iraq led to 4000+ dead American servicepersons, dozens of thousands of injured/wounded (3rd degree burns, maimed, paraplegic, brain damaged, blinded, etc), not to mention hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis and injured/maimed/crippled Iraqis, the emotional pain of dead relatives, the suffering from no food, fleeing homes, the shattered lives, disease (cholera breakouts in Iraq even as I type), 4 million refugees...

Bush, pro-life. Indeed.

I know it's hard to comprehend, because you are myopically conditioned to seeing every issue through the 'Bush is evil because of Iraq' lens, but take the total number of service people who died in Iraq, who joined the military fully aware of the risks, and multiply that number times the number of days between today and Jan. 22nd, 1973.

That difference between those two numbers will tell you the difference between a pro-life and pro-choice President.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rockwall
It is quite odd that you compare those who have died in a war to the murder of millions of helpless babies who have never harmed anybody.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RichLP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rockwall
It is quite odd that you compare those who have died in a war to the murder of millions of helpless babies who have never harmed anybody.

I'm referring to IRAQI CIVILIANS, not to combatants who died fighting the invading coalition.

I also find it so interesting that prowar Christians like yourself do not make comments on the details of the horrible human suffering perpetrated in Iraq.

quote:

I don't think abortion has ever been a major issue, or at least not for the past 20 years or so.

There's a portion of people who feel strongly about it on either side of the debate, but the vast majority of people will not consider it at all in choosing a candidate.

quote:

Similarly, if one chooses to ignore the premeditated murder of 44,000,000 preborn children in the U.S. since 1973 when deciding which governmental leader (President, governor, etc.) to support, it is the same as sanctioning those deaths. I don't know about you, but I personally refuse to keep their blood on my hands.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ekserekseez

quote:

Similarly, if one chooses to ignore the premeditated murder of 44,000,000 preborn children in the U.S. since 1973 when deciding which governmental leader (President, governor, etc.) to support, it is the same as sanctioning those deaths. I don't know about you, but I personally refuse to keep their blood on my hands.

But many people don't consider it murder, and many others such as myself just don't care. I know it's a big deal to you, but I really find the issue itself dull (although I am fascinated by others' absorption with it, regardless of side they take).

quote:

ORIGINAL: coolfamily6

quote:

ORIGINAL: RichLP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rockwall
It is quite odd that you compare those who have died in a war to the murder of millions of helpless babies who have never harmed anybody.

I'm referring to IRAQI CIVILIANS, not to combatants who died fighting the invading coalition.

I also find it so interesting that prowar Christians like yourself do not make comments on the details of the horrible human suffering perpetrated in Iraq.

I realize that Iraqi civilians have died because of the war, I am sorry for the loss of those people. If you think that only Iraqi's are suffering go to a military hospital, Americans are too. Do you think they are bringing coffee and donuts to our soldiers?

But AMERICAN citizens died too. Has that been so easily forgotten? You can argue that 911 was not prepetrated by Iraq but even if it wasn't it was/is a matter of time before it happened.

As to the soldiers over there. There is no draft, they chose this line of work. All of the soldiers I know would go back in a heartbeat. The believe in what they are doing. Freedom is not free. Look at the statistic for WWII. Aren't you glad that those men and women believed that America and her freedoms were worth fighting for?

ETA: Sadly, the media does not show the good our soldiers are doing. Oh, maybe that is because they want to skew the facts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: coolfamily6
I realize that Iraqi civilians have died because of the war, I am sorry for the loss of those people. If you think that only Iraqi's are suffering go to a military hospital, Americans are too. Do you think they are bringing coffee and donuts to our soldiers?

But AMERICAN citizens died too. Has that been so easily forgotten? You can argue that 911 was not prepetrated by Iraq but even if it wasn't it was/is a matter of time before it happened.

As to the soldiers over there. There is no draft, they chose this line of work. All of the soldiers I know would go back in a heartbeat. The believe in what they are doing. Freedom is not free. Look at the statistic for WWII. Aren't you glad that those men and women believed that America and her freedoms were worth fighting for?

ETA: Sadly, the media does not show the good our soldiers are doing. Oh, maybe that is because they want to skew the facts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
It amazes me that anyone, let alone a Christian, would use any war to excuse abortion. But it happens all the time! Well, if that's the best they can do...bring on the red herrings...

quote:

If one will speak of myopic views, one should look at those prowar Christians who summarily dismiss the colossal loss of life suffered by the people of Iraq by the so-called Christian official known as George W. Bush. Then again, prowar Christians aren't keen to admit the loss of life and the inimaginable human suffering caused by politicians whom they happen to like.

As for "Bush is evil because of Iraq," I would say Bush is capable of evil because he's a sinner, but the horrors the invasion of Iraq caused in that land will certainly have to be accounted for one day.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

If one will speak of myopic views, one should look at those prowar Christians who summarily dismiss the colossal loss of life suffered by the people of Iraq by the so-called Christian official known as George W. Bush. Then again, prowar Christians aren't keen to admit the loss of life and the inimaginable human suffering caused by politicians whom they happen to like.

As for "Bush is evil because of Iraq," I would say Bush is capable of evil because he's a sinner, but the horrors the invasion of Iraq caused in that land will certainly have to be accounted for one day.

We are all sinners, and thus evil, so throwing stones really shouldn't be your forte.

That being said, abortion and Iraq are two completely different issues based on two completely different set of circumstances, and whatever one thinks of either of them, one shouldn't confuse and conflate the two as you seem to have done - though I suspect you are doing so for the sake of political expediency rather than reason or logic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RichLP
I'm referring to IRAQI CIVILIANS, not to combatants who died fighting the invading coalition.

quote:

It's not wrong to bring up Iraq in the context of rebutting the notion of Bush being held up as "the last pro-life President." The point that Rich (and I, in other threads) is making is that there is more to being "pro-life" than just being anti-abortion. The hypocrisy is that many Christians will shout and scream endlessly about being "pro-life" with respect to abortion, but gladly accept any justification the administration puts out (e.g. Iraq == 9/11) when it comes to engaging in military campaigns, regardless of how justified the action really was or how accurate that "justification" really is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: RichLP
I'm referring to IRAQI CIVILIANS, not to combatants who died fighting the invading coalition.

I presume you are referring to the millions killed by Hussein, not the slight amount of unintended casualities of the war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
If you wish to discuss how Iraq was a bad war please do so - but do not insult our intelligence and good will by pretending that the basis for Iraq and the basis for legalized aboirtion are related.

quote:

Any number of Presidents have had to choose to go to war for any number of reasons to defend our interests

quote:

Like him or hate him, Bush will be the last pro-life president.

quote:

I won't pretend that the basis for the two are related, but I will say that if you're going to claim the value of human life as your reason for wanting abortion banned, then it should be a significant factor in your opinions on other, "life"-related issues.

quote:

I'm going to say that war is never justified - there are obviously cases where it is. I won't even say that the Iraq war was completely unjustified. I do think, however, that there was more justification seen than was actually there. All I'm saying is that if you're going to fly the banner of being "pro-life," then that standard should apply to all topics, not just some.

quote:

I know you didn't coin the term "defending our interests," but I have a real problem with the potential implications of that phrase. It can include a wide array of economic and political interests that I seriously question whether or not are worth sacrificing human lives over. I bristle a bit any time that phrase is used.

quote:

I know lots of women who had abortions while W was president. Guess I missed the part where W saved them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

I won't pretend that the basis for the two are related, but I will say that if you're going to claim the value of human life as your reason for wanting abortion banned, then it should be a significant factor in your opinions on other, "life"-related issues.

Of course it is; but my opposition to abortion isn't based merely on how valuable life is, but on what basis we can rightly choose to take that life.

quote:


Obviously there are legitimate reasons to take human life, and legitimate reasons to put humans in a situation where there life might be in danger; but the reasons we do this in war are quite different than those which govern abortion choices, and your attempt to conflate them is a matter of deception, not logic or reason.

quote:

quote:

I'm going to say that war is never justified - there are obviously cases where it is. I won't even say that the Iraq war was completely unjustified. I do think, however, that there was more justification seen than was actually there. All I'm saying is that if you're going to fly the banner of being "pro-life," then that standard should apply to all topics, not just some.

And you are free to say that; but the reasons that Iraq would or wouldn't be justified are completely separate from those which are used to justify abortion.

quote:

As is my opposition to abortion. For the same reason, I (and I suspect you as well) don't have a problem with capital punishment (at least in theory; practical issues of implementation are another matter).

quote:

'm not trying to conflate them. I'm trying to counter the common practice (though not necessarily practiced by you) of using the term "pro-life" to specifically refer to a position on the abortion debate. Being "pro-life" should have a much broader scope than that.

quote:

The justifications for Iraq may be separate, but our value of life should influence our decisions in handling the situation (e.g. whether or not to try another diplomatic measure or just going straight to war) and our opinion of whether or not the outcome is worth the sacrifice.

quote:

I guess my main point is: While our action in Iraq may have technically been justified (given our intelligence at the time and Saddam's behavior, I can see an argument that it was), I question whether it's a good idea (or even correct) to hold up Bush as a "pro-life" president solely on the basis of his abortion views, when his actions as Commander-in-Chief didn't display much reluctance to go to war.

quote:

There were lots of people who owned slaves before the Civil War; I guess no one was anti-slavery until then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: todd_t

quote:

Like him or hate him, Bush will be the last pro-life president.

Well, Bush did allow Federal funds to be used (on a limited basis) for embryonic stem cell research. So I guess he's not that pro-life, after all.

quote:

My understanding is that Federal funds were provided for research utilizing existing cell lines. In other words, no additional embryos were destroyed.