|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 7:48:41 AM
|
|
|
RichLP
Posts: 1533
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
I'm referring to IRAQI CIVILIANS, not to combatants who died fighting the invading coalition.
I presume you are referring to the millions killed by Hussein, not the slight amount of unintended casualities of the war.
Thanks
RC
I am referring to IRAQI CIVILIANS KILLED BY THE INVASION AND BY THE VIOLENCE THAT STARTED TO OCCUR IN THE VACUUM GENERATED AFTER THE DEPOSITION OF THE BAATH.
Is that clear?
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 7:51:30 AM
|
|
|
RichLP
Posts: 1533
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
If one will speak of myopic views, one should look at those prowar Christians who summarily dismiss the colossal loss of life suffered by the people of Iraq by the so-called Christian official known as George W. Bush. Then again, prowar Christians aren't keen to admit the loss of life and the inimaginable human suffering caused by politicians whom they happen to like.
As for "Bush is evil because of Iraq," I would say Bush is capable of evil because he's a sinner, but the horrors the invasion of Iraq caused in that land will certainly have to be accounted for one day.
We are all sinners, and thus evil, so throwing stones really shouldn't be your forte.
That being said, abortion and Iraq are two completely different issues based on two completely different set of circumstances, and whatever one thinks of either of them, one shouldn't confuse and conflate the two as you seem to have done - though I suspect you are doing so for the sake of political expediency rather than reason or logic.
Political expediency has been utilized time and again by candidates to garner votes and if adhering to a given position on the issue of abortion was "expedient," these individuals did not hesitate to do so.
As Iluvavatar stated, being a candidate who is "pro-life" is not necessarily confined to the issue of the unborn. The creator of this thread described Bush as the last "pro-life" president but Bush's actions in Iraq have erased hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilian lives and crippled thousands of others.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 7:54:50 AM
|
|
|
RichLP
Posts: 1533
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
I'm referring to IRAQI CIVILIANS, not to combatants who died fighting the invading coalition.
I presume you are referring to the millions killed by Hussein, not the slight amount of unintended casualities of the war.
Even the most conservative estimates have civilian casualties of the war at 90,000; that's hardly a "slight amount."
-Dan.
Dan, I never ceased to be appalled at the apparent callousness and insensitivity of some Christians towards foreign civilian deaths in war - especially when those wars are started by our own country.
And RCJames, 2 years ago, a respected British journal estimated Iraqi civilian deaths from 2003 to 2006 to have numbered 600,000. Now in 2008, some say the death toll has reached 1 million. "Conservative" estimates say at least 100,000 Iraqis have perished.
And even if it were "only" 90,000 dead Iraqi civilians, that'd still be 30 times the number of Americans who perished on September 11, 2001 - and that tally was and still is seen, and rightfully so, as a bloodbath.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 8:24:16 AM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6355
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
I'm referring to IRAQI CIVILIANS, not to combatants who died fighting the invading coalition.
I presume you are referring to the millions killed by Hussein, not the slight amount of unintended casualities of the war.
Thanks
RC
I am referring to IRAQI CIVILIANS KILLED BY THE INVASION AND BY THE VIOLENCE THAT STARTED TO OCCUR IN THE VACUUM GENERATED AFTER THE DEPOSITION OF THE BAATH.
Is that clear?
No need to shout. And people die in wars, it is a sad thing but it does happen.
Using your logic the world should have never done a thing in WW2, because you know, in taking Hitler down.. people may have died.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 8:29:57 AM
|
|
|
RichLP
Posts: 1533
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
I'm referring to IRAQI CIVILIANS, not to combatants who died fighting the invading coalition.
I presume you are referring to the millions killed by Hussein, not the slight amount of unintended casualities of the war.
Thanks
RC
I am referring to IRAQI CIVILIANS KILLED BY THE INVASION AND BY THE VIOLENCE THAT STARTED TO OCCUR IN THE VACUUM GENERATED AFTER THE DEPOSITION OF THE BAATH.
Is that clear?
No need to shout. And people die in wars, it is a sad thing but it does happen.
Using your logic the world should have never done a thing in WW2, because you know, in taking Hitler down.. people may have died.
The invocation of World War II is an inappropriate analogy.
Nazi Germany, under Adolf Hitler, had attacked European nations. The current Iraq war was not started by Saddam Hussein - Hussein was contained and his Iraq had not invaded any other country (after 1990). WE the United States attacked first. WE were the aggressors.
As for people dying in war, yes it is sad and it does happen, but Iraqis have died in en masse - and this scope of human suffering is colossal.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 8:44:13 AM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6355
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
So you're absolutely ignoring the fact that Saddam had, on a multitude of occassions, attacked neighboring countries?
And that he even attacked the ethnic groups in the north of his own country with biological weapons.
What does this little rant of yours even have to do with the thread topic? It seems you just want to keep waxing for the left.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 10:13:09 AM
|
|
|
iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
So you're absolutely ignoring the fact that Saddam had, on a multitude of occassions, attacked neighboring countries?
And that he even attacked the ethnic groups in the north of his own country with biological weapons.
He hadn't attacked any neighboring countries since the first Gulf War and for the most part, his attacking the Kurds was done while we were allied with him in his fight against Iran. We were more worried about Soviet expansion via Iran, so we just looked the other way when Hussein decided to gas tens of thousands of people.
That was all done in the late 70's and 80's - long before our 2003 invasion.
quote:
What does this little rant of yours even have to do with the thread topic? It seems you just want to keep waxing for the left.
It's highlighting the selective nature and hypocrisy of how the term "pro-life" is often used.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 11:04:54 AM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6355
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
It's highlighting the selective nature and hypocrisy of how the term "pro-life" is often used.
-Dan.
It seems you fail to understand the difference between defending the innocent unborn and a government's role to wage war, etc..
Apples and oranges.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 11:31:35 AM
|
|
|
lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Rockwall: Show me where Jesus said that we should play God and kill babies. Show me that passage and I will donate $50 to the church of your choosing and will post the Paypal receipt.
quote:
IMA_CHRISTIAN: I know,, I know!!! God ordered King Saul to kill all the Amelikites, everything, animals, people, and of course there were babies.
I will take that $50 check!
Are you kidding, IMA_CHRISTIAN? I'm pretty shocked that someone would make this comparison to abortion. Can you explain how you came to this conclusion?
God ordering His people to carry out His will is not the same thing as people choosing to murder their own children. God's justice is perfect, and He ordered the attacks for a reason. God also directly communicated His will to His people regarding the action they were to take.
Abortion in America? Yeah... not the same thing at all. I would like to know how you are comparing the two.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 12:36:07 PM
|
|
|
iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
It's highlighting the selective nature and hypocrisy of how the term "pro-life" is often used.
-Dan.
It seems you fail to understand the difference between defending the innocent unborn and a government's role to wage war, etc..
I completely grasp the difference. It's one to "do what you've gotta do" when facing an imminent threat; it's another thing to actively plan to go to war against someone that may be a bad guy, but not an imminent threat, when there are possibly other measures that can be used against him.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 1:22:07 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6355
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
Dan,
Everyone and every piece of information pointed to him being a threat and having WMD. Clinton, Kerry, Tony Blair, etc.. all agreed.
This goes above your dissent for President Bush.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 3:06:35 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
Political expediency has been utilized time and again by candidates to garner votes and if adhering to a given position on the issue of abortion was "expedient," these individuals did not hesitate to do so.
As Iluvavatar stated, being a candidate who is "pro-life" is not necessarily confined to the issue of the unborn. The creator of this thread described Bush as the last "pro-life" president but Bush's actions in Iraq have erased hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilian lives and crippled thousands of others.
And as I pointed out, your attempt to pervert the term for a pet political issue does nothing to address the fact that the intentional, consistent and overwhelming murder of the unborn is a completely unrelated issue. If you want to discuss Iraq, do so in the apporpriate thread, or your atttempts to attck others by changing the topic will be appropriately dealt with.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 3:48:49 PM
|
|
|
iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
And as I pointed out, your attempt to pervert the term for a pet political issue
Actually, I that's the point that Rich and I are making - that relegating the term "pro-life" to refer only to abortion is, as you put it, a "perversion of the term for a pet political issue." The war in Iraq is merely an example used to illustrate the point.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 3:52:53 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
|
Bush is for abortion in the case of rape... That alone make him not pro-life in my book... Complete injustice... There is no cause for one that claims Christ to hold such a corrupt view of justice...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 6:19:25 PM
|
|
|
rgod
Posts: 1774
Joined: 4/25/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
Like him or hate him, Bush will be the last pro-life president. Since the most extreme pro-death candidate was voted into office, the days of fighting for the lives of the least among us are over. Sure we can fight for their rights, but since the liberals have the Legislative, Executive, and eventually the Judicial branches of government, resistance is futile.
Please forgive me if this issue has already been raised since I haven't read the entire thread. I'm a little confused as to why you feel this way? The reason for my confusion is because the balance of power has shifted back and forth between liberals and conservatives maybe since the inception of this country. The liberals are in control now (we'll see how much control once the contested senate seats are decided), but in 2 or 4 years, they might not be. Most likely, even if Obama were to be reelected, in 6 years it would probably change since it seems to me that Americans like to have the Executive branch run by one group and the Legislative branch run by another (at least in more recent years). There are also plenty of pro-life voices (mostly on the republican side - a few on the democratic side) that temper those that are pro-choice. I was also reading a poll not too long ago that indicated that the majority of Americans - even those who are pro-choice - favor some sort of limitation on abortions (I can find it if you want to see it). So, I guess I don't see this as a dead issue - particularly since power balance is in constant flux.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 9:58:46 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
Actually, I that's the point that Rich and I are making - that relegating the term "pro-life" to refer only to abortion is, as you put it, a "perversion of the term for a pet political issue." The war in Iraq is merely an example used to illustrate the point.
Well considering that the term has been in existence for over 25 years in reference to abortion, and the Iraq War has been going for five, I would suggest you find your own term by which to distinguish between those who supported the war and those who didn't.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 9:59:30 PM
|
|
|
RichLP
Posts: 1533
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Political expediency has been utilized time and again by candidates to garner votes and if adhering to a given position on the issue of abortion was "expedient," these individuals did not hesitate to do so.
As Iluvavatar stated, being a candidate who is "pro-life" is not necessarily confined to the issue of the unborn. The creator of this thread described Bush as the last "pro-life" president but Bush's actions in Iraq have erased hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilian lives and crippled thousands of others.
And as I pointed out, your attempt to pervert the term for a pet political issue does nothing to address the fact that the intentional, consistent and overwhelming murder of the unborn is a completely unrelated issue. If you want to discuss Iraq, do so in the apporpriate thread, or your atttempts to attck others by changing the topic will be appropriately dealt with.
Your first response to me used the word "myopic" and your tone was not diplomatic whatsoever. You are in no position to speak about attacking others.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 10:00:45 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
Your first response to me used the word "myopic" and your tone was not diplomatic whatsoever. You are in no position to speak about attacking others.
Since when is myopic a personal attack?
But that's irrelevant to the fact you are off topic.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 11:37:00 PM
|
|
|
His_4_Ever
Posts: 599
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
Status: offline
|
I like you, RichLP, question the term"Pro-Life" I think if you're going to call yourself "Pro-Life" then be fully "Pro-Life". Don't be selective about the lives you want to save or have.
What exactly did Bush do to curtail abortions? I want to know why the abortion rate is 43% for Protestant woman and 27% for Catholic women. Obviously, Christians need to work on the abortion rate within their ranks before taking on the rest of the nation. If Christians really want to stop abortions, they would set up homes for these young pregnant women. Places where they can continue their educations and decide whether or not to put their child up for adoption. If Christians want to make abortion illegal, they're going to need to help with the large fallout of young pregnant women.
Why, do those who say they are Pro-Life take contraceptives. If they are so Pro-Life why are they interfering with God's natural human design. Preventing an unborn life to me is as bad as taking it. I mean neither get to live a full life, their lives are taken from them before they even have a chance.
If your Pro-life I think the hunger situation throughout the world should be addressed. Thousands of children, who are alive and breathing starve to death everyday. If everyone would just give a dollar a month, there would be no hunger.
I know it's been said women and men weren't forced to enlist, but they did not sign up to fight what appears to be an unending war. I bet if you went over and asked the troops if they are ready to come home, you would get a resounding yes. The only reason they stay is because they will get court-martialed if they don't. Really, exactly what are our interest in Iraqi?
Abortion Statistics
< Message edited by campbe33 -- 11/10/2008 2:38:16 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 11:49:06 PM
|
|
|
His_4_Ever
Posts: 599
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Political expediency has been utilized time and again by candidates to garner votes and if adhering to a given position on the issue of abortion was "expedient," these individuals did not hesitate to do so.
As Iluvavatar stated, being a candidate who is "pro-life" is not necessarily confined to the issue of the unborn. The creator of this thread described Bush as the last "pro-life" president but Bush's actions in Iraq have erased hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilian lives and crippled thousands of others.
And as I pointed out, your attempt to pervert the term for a pet political issue does nothing to address the fact that the intentional, consistent and overwhelming murder of the unborn is a completely unrelated issue. If you want to discuss Iraq, do so in the apporpriate thread, or your atttempts to attck others by changing the topic will be appropriately dealt with.
Your first response to me used the word "myopic" and your tone was not diplomatic whatsoever. You are in no position to speak about attacking others.
quote:
ORIGNIAL: Jhud
I know it's hard to comprehend, because you are myopically conditioned to seeing every issue through the 'Bush is evil because of Iraq' lens,
Sounds, like an attack to me.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/9/2008 11:56:50 PM
|
|
|
Rockwall
Posts: 465
Joined: 8/18/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
It is quite odd that you compare those who have died in a war to the murder of millions of helpless babies who have never harmed anybody.
I'm referring to IRAQI CIVILIANS, not to combatants who died fighting the invading coalition.
I also find it so interesting that prowar Christians like yourself do not make comments on the details of the horrible human suffering perpetrated in Iraq.
I kind of figured you didn't care about the American deaths, I just wanted to here it from you.
As for being a pro-war Christian, I remember with clarity those Americans jumping to their deaths because they couldn't stand the heat in the twin towers. I remember the sound of them hitting the ground and people screaming with fear and disbelief. I remember our innocent civilians getting killed and the Islamo-fascist yelling Allah Akbar! I remember our soldiers being burned and dragged and hanging from bridges!
So before you look down your nose at me, think about this: though you would rather have OUR innocent civilians killed instead of THEIR innocent civilians, I will choose my wife and children over theirs.
_____________________________
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/10/2008 12:03:52 AM
|
|
|
Rockwall
Posts: 465
Joined: 8/18/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
And even if it were "only" 90,000 dead Iraqi civilians, that'd still be 30 times the number of Americans who perished on September 11, 2001 - and that tally was and still is seen, and rightfully so, as a bloodbath.[/size][/font]
Apparently you believe not enough Americans were killed according to your moral equivalency, so who should be attacked next? Texas... California... who?
_____________________________
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/10/2008 12:18:55 AM
|
|
|
Rockwall
Posts: 465
Joined: 8/18/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
And as I pointed out, your attempt to pervert the term for a pet political issue
Actually, I that's the point that Rich and I are making - that relegating the term "pro-life" to refer only to abortion is, as you put it, a "perversion of the term for a pet political issue." The war in Iraq is merely an example used to illustrate the point.
-Dan.
Wow, you've got to be kidding me? How can any grown adult NOT know what the term "pro-life" means?
quote:
Merriam-Webster dictionary:
: opposed to abortion http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pro-life
quote:
Cambridge dictionary:
opposed to the belief that a pregnant woman should have the freedom to choose an abortion if she does not want to have a baby http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=63328&dict=CALD
quote:
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition:
Advocating full legal protection of human embryos or fetuses, especially by opposing legalized abortion. http://www.bartleby.com/61/5/P0590500.html
_____________________________
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/10/2008 12:32:48 AM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
Sounds, like an attack to me.
Really, what does the word mean?
(Without looking it up...)
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/10/2008 1:01:19 AM
|
|
|
His_4_Ever
Posts: 599
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
Status: offline
|
There's nothing wrong with the word "myopically" by itself. It's your whole phrase, the context and the way it comes across that makes it appear insulting.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
(Without looking it up...)It's nearsightedness which I have
quote:
ORIGNIAL: Jhud
I know it's hard to comprehend, because you are myopically conditioned to seeing every issue through the 'Bush is evil because of Iraq' lens
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
