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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/10/2008 1:11:25 AM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
I kind of figured you didn't care about the American deaths, I just wanted to here it from you.
As for being a pro-war Christian, I remember with clarity those Americans jumping to their deaths because they couldn't stand the heat in the twin towers. I remember the sound of them hitting the ground and people screaming with fear and disbelief. I remember our innocent civilians getting killed and the Islamo-fascist yelling Allah Akbar! I remember our soldiers being burned and dragged and hanging from bridges!
So before you look down your nose at me, think about this: though you would rather have OUR innocent civilians killed instead of THEIR innocent civilians, I will choose my wife and children over theirs.
It's these kinds of false dichotomies and this sort of twisted thinking that makes conservatives look a bunch of idiot rednecks and allows politicians to get away will all sorts of atrocities and screwups. And people on here tell me that I am watching too much tv? Am I really the one who's brainwashed here? jeez...
For the umpteen millionth time: Iraq didn't cause 9/11. And it's not a decision between their civilians and ours.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/10/2008 8:19:41 AM
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StephK
Posts: 2238
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Saddam should have honored the cease fire agreement he signed to save his sorry hide back in the first Gulf War then if he didn't want to pay the piper. He didn't and he was given chance after chance after chance. Some of you all conveniently forget that little aspect of the war. Had he complied like he was supposed to he would still be alive to torture and murder his own citizens you know like putting them feet first into human shredders or forcing the women to the rape rooms.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/crs/Crsiraq2.htm
< Message edited by StephK -- 11/10/2008 8:29:47 AM >
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/10/2008 8:35:06 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
Saddam should have honored the cease fire agreement he signed to save his sorry hide back in the first Gulf War then if he didn't want to pay the piper. He didn't and he was given chance after chance after chance. Some of you all conveniently forget that little aspect of the war.
Actually, I'm haven't forgotten. That's why I've generally avoided the issue of whether or not we were justified in invading. Technically speaking, we may have been. I question whether or not that was the wisest move and whether or not our president was truly concerned with human life and suffering or just with punishing Saddam and pushing our agenda.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/10/2008 9:14:19 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
There's nothing wrong with the word "myopically" by itself. It's your whole phrase, the context and the way it comes across that makes it appear insulting.
It;s a rather straight forward fact that Rich sees everything about Bush through the lens of Iraq as evidenced by his thousands of posts on the subject over the years; if you thin facts are insulting that is your problem.
Either way it's off topic.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/10/2008 11:15:13 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1533
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
I kind of figured you didn't care about the American deaths, I just wanted to here it from you.
Rockwall, I will interpret this as a misunderstanding on your part.
My opposition to the Iraq war is based, among other reasons, on the horrible human casualty toll it has exacted upon Iraqi civilians, but also, upon the sufferings of our brave servicepersons who have not cowered in the face of danger.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
As for being a pro-war Christian, I remember with clarity those Americans jumping to their deaths because they couldn't stand the heat in the twin towers. I remember the sound of them hitting the ground and people screaming with fear and disbelief. I remember our innocent civilians getting killed and the Islamo-fascist yelling Allah Akbar! I remember our soldiers being burned and dragged and hanging from bridges!
So before you look down your nose at me, think about this: though you would rather have OUR innocent civilians killed instead of THEIR innocent civilians, I will choose my wife and children over theirs.
1. Iraqi civilians were not behind 9/11.
2. It has been determined that the Baath regime of Saddam Hussein had no part in 9/11; George W. Bush himself has said that much in public, and it's been determined there was no collaborative partnership between Iraq and Al-Qaeda. So your references to "Islamo-fascism" is irrelevant here."
3. The Fallujah incident you speak of did not involve US servicepersons. It involved contractors. This by no means reduces the gravity of that even, and it most certainly does not justify the actions by those Iraqis. But if anything, it highlights that a lot of Iraqis did not want us to invade THEIR country. And it did also demonstrate that at least in Fallujah, loyalty to Hussein (and hostility to our soldiers) was palpable.
4. I'm not looking my nose down on you or on anybody.
5. I would rather have NO civilians killed, but let's remember that Iraqi civilian lives are worth as much as American civilian lives. American, Iraqi, German, Hondurean, Portuguese, Egyptian... a human being is a human being; you cut them open, they'll bleed. We are all humans created in the image of God and God does not favor the horrible suffering of civilians in war, whether they be suburban Americans from Connecticut or northern New Jersey who lost loved ones on 9/11 or Iraqi Arabs of Shiite Muslim faith who have lost loved ones to sectarian warfare.
6. I repeat: Iraqi civilians were not to blame for 9/11.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/10/2008 11:24:45 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
It's also a "rather straight forward fact that" you, Jhud, often write here towards those whose views differ from yours, as Campbe33 said, with "phrases, the context and the way it comes across" that make it appear insulting.
And if you have issues with me highlighting the hypocrisy of Bush as a "pro-life" president by mentioning the unimaginable human suffering borne by Iraqis thanks to his war, "that is your problem."
You can spin it any way you want; discussions about Iraq belong in this thread; please stop taking this one off topic.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/10/2008 1:15:28 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11745
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please take the Iraq discussion to the Iraq thread. This is a thread about the topic of abortion and the President of the US.
Thanks.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/10/2008 2:57:29 PM
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His_4_Ever
Posts: 599
Joined: 10/4/2008
From: Idaho
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
ORIGINAL: Campbe33
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I know it's hard to comprehend, because you are myopically conditioned to seeing every issue through the 'Bush is evil because of Iraq' lens
There's nothing wrong with the word "myopically" by itself. It's your whole phrase, the context and the way it comes across that makes it appear insulting.
It;s a rather straight forward fact that Rich sees everything about Bush through the lens of Iraq as evidenced by his thousands of posts on the subject over the years; if you thin facts are insulting that is your problem.
Either way it's off topic.
Both your reply to RichLP and myself appear to be more condescending than anything else. It's these kind of responses I feel most of us in these forums need to work on, myself included. We as Christians should speak to each other cordially even if we are disagreeing with each other. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard.
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/10/2008 3:31:55 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Both your reply to RichLP and myself appear to be more condescending than anything else. It's these kind of responses I feel most of us in these forums need to work on, myself included. We as Christians should speak to each other cordially even if we are disagreeing with each other. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard.
The nature of my replies is not the topic of this thread either.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/10/2008 9:13:59 PM
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ekserekseez
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Back to the topic of the thread (and who would have ever thought that I'd be the one to say THAT?)...
If Bush is the LAST pro-life president, does that mean that you think that there will never be another one again? Do you mean that every single president from now on will be pro-abortion, or do you mean that there won't be any more presidents? You could take your statement either way.
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/11/2008 8:03:37 AM
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Born_Again
Posts: 208
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Pro-life movement will come to life and be effective when so called Christian stop politicking and preaching/ witnessing the Gospel of Christ. Too many Christians thinks that they can bring moral change by forcing it to people, Praise God that McCain lost along with Evangelical Christen’s political ambition, may be now some Christian will leave politics and work in the church to bring change in people’s heart instate of bringing change in government.
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/11/2008 8:39:36 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Pro-life movement will come to life and be effective when so called Christian stop politicking and preaching/ witnessing the Gospel of Christ. Too many Christians thinks that they can bring moral change by forcing it to people, Praise God that McCain lost along with Evangelical Christen’s political ambition, may be now some Christian will leave politics and work in the church to bring change in people’s heart instate of bringing change in government.
I am skeptical that a faith that is indifferent to the life of the unborn will move any hearts at all.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/11/2008 9:50:40 AM
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ekserekseez
Posts: 693
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quote:
I am skeptical that a faith that is indifferent to the life of the unborn will move any hearts at all.
You're probably right. No religion is more anti-abortion that Islam, and it's by far the fastest growing religion in the world, unfortunately.
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/11/2008 10:48:33 AM
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Born_Again
Posts: 208
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Pro-life movement will come to life and be effective when so called Christian stop politicking and preaching/ witnessing the Gospel of Christ. Too many Christians thinks that they can bring moral change by forcing it to people, Praise God that McCain lost along with Evangelical Christen’s political ambition, may be now some Christian will leave politics and work in the church to bring change in people’s heart instate of bringing change in government.
I am skeptical that a faith that is indifferent to the life of the unborn will move any hearts at all.
How sad that you think that salvation depends on what kind of abortion laws we have in the country. It is the Holy Spirit who changes people’s heart. Unfortunately this is the reality. Past two decades evangelical Christians invested too much time , money, faith on this pro-life movement that they forgot how simple it is to win hearts for Christ. You spread the word and let Holy Sprit do His work in peoples heart.
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/11/2008 10:53:37 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
How sad that you think that salvation depends on what kind of abortion laws we have in the country. It is the Holy Spirit who changes people’s heart. Unfortunately this is the reality. Past two decades evangelical Christians invested too much time , money, faith on this pro-life movement that they forgot how simple it is to win hearts for Christ. You spread the word and let Holy Sprit do His work in peoples heart.
Sadder still that anyone think they can show the love of Christ and be indifferent to the deaths of millions of innocent children. One can't say they love Christ and not care about the least of these; and if you want to see how effective a gospel is apart from such concern, you need look no farther than Western Europe where abortions are easily available and churches are mostly empty.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/11/2008 11:12:26 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2942
Joined: 6/13/2005
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Hey Jack,
The next step is going to be giving shots to the elderly, people with chronic illnesses and people with mental/physical disabilities --- so they can die quicker. (why should we be burdened down with them) Euthanasia! I wonder if the "same group of Christians" will tell us to stop trying to prevent the legalization of that as well?
Acting "as if" we cannot both work at jobs, work in the political arean AND win souls for Christ. Maybe folks like us Jack are just able to do more than one thing at a time.
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/11/2008 12:35:01 PM
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Born_Again
Posts: 208
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
How sad that you think that salvation depends on what kind of abortion laws we have in the country. It is the Holy Spirit who changes people’s heart. Unfortunately this is the reality. Past two decades evangelical Christians invested too much time , money, faith on this pro-life movement that they forgot how simple it is to win hearts for Christ. You spread the word and let Holy Sprit do His work in peoples heart.
Sadder still that anyone think they can show the love of Christ and be indifferent to the deaths of millions of innocent children. One can't say they love Christ and not care about the least of these; and if you want to see how effective a gospel is apart from such concern, you need look no farther than Western Europe where abortions are easily available and churches are mostly empty.
If the early church leader had in mind that they need to change the society, change the government in line with Biblical standard before they can spread the gospel then I would never heard the gospel, Christianity would have died down along with the disciple.
Christians in America are so privileged that they think in order to spread the word of God they need ““Christian nation” , “ Christian government”, . instate of putting faith in Christ and trusting His sprit to do the work they depend on their own ability to change people’s heart.
Power of God to change people’s heart doesn’t depend on situation but God Himself, we don’t need to look no further but China, India and other South Asian countries. Christianity is the fastest growing religion in those countries and in United State – the Islam is fastest growing religion. In those countries they don’t care what kind of law government has, they care what they themselves doing for the kingdom of God.
In America Christians spend too much time on “ if kids has permission to pray in school or not” instate of teaching kids at home how to pray, in USA Christians worry how many unsaved women having sex in school instate of trying to win those women for Christ, in USA Christians worry for the unborn babies, instate of wining the heart of a mother for Christ which ultimately world stop killing the unborn babies.
In the thread “The survivor's guide to exile” many wrote church might be purified after this election. Aha! Losing an election is persecution ? I guess we American Christian haven’t been persecuted for Christ that is why we don’t know what is “ religious persecution” , If the head would chop off for reading the Bible to others or putting in jail for gathering in some one’s home to worship Christ, only then we would see revival in our church.
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/11/2008 12:45:25 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2942
Joined: 6/13/2005
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You are a Pro-choice Obama supporter correct?
You sound just like the rest of them. You appear to be unable to comprehend that "laws" in this country are important.
Do you plan to also tell us Christians we are wrong when we speak out against murder of children under the age of 5 with major birth defects too?
quote:
in USA Christians worry for the unborn babies, instate of wining the heart of a mother for Christ which ultimately world stop killing the unborn babies.
To be very frank and honest with you MOST of my time is spent trying to help Christians mature in their faith. Learn discernment so that they can know what is right and what is wrong. (spiritural gift of teaching) But I also spend money and time trying to work to keep women who chose to ingore God from murdering their children. (whether inside or outside the womb - I don't discriminate) If you witness then you certainly KNOW that many turn from our message just as they did when Jesus witnessed to them. Most turned from him once He stopped doing miracles for them and began to explain "why" he came. What they must do.
Do you just pretend that those people won't commit murder?
You appear to have the gift of evangelism. That's great. But we are all part of the same body. Your gift is no greater than any other nor is mine. Don't bash those of us who use our gifts to help lead others to a deeper understanding of what it means to be a follower of Christ. One who defends those who are most oppressed and without a voice, the orphan and widows.
quote:
If the head would chop off for reading the Bible to others or putting in jail for gathering in some one’s home to worship Christ, only then we would see revival in our church.
I told someone yesterday that I think the first persecution we will see is when we are told we cannot preach the unedited word of God and are arrested for disobeying that law. (I figure it will have to do with hate speech and homosexuality) I also figure the persecution will not really occur until I am thrown in prison with a group of lesbian women who will ask me "what you in for" and I have to tell them.
quote:
If the head would chop off for reading the Bible to others or putting in jail for gathering in some one’s home to worship Christ, only then we would see revival in our church.
Yes I agree with you. But when it comes to the "world" we won't see Revival. We need laws to help protect both us and others who are trying to live or survive. We are to be 'salt" in this world. Salt help prevent or slow down decay.
Helping to pass laws to protect innocent people is something that's a no brainer for me a Christian. It's love in action. Love that does more than give lip service. It's love that required I sacrifice of my time and money.
< Message edited by P31W -- 11/11/2008 1:02:09 PM >
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/11/2008 1:03:37 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
If the early church leader had in mind that they need to change the society, change the government in line with Biblical standard before they can spread the gospel then I would never heard the gospel, Christianity would have died down along with the disciple.
Christians in America are so privileged that they think in order to spread the word of God they need ““Christian nation” , “ Christian government”, . instate of putting faith in Christ and trusting His sprit to do the work they depend on their own ability to change people’s heart.
Power of God to change people’s heart doesn’t depend on situation but God Himself, we don’t need to look no further but China, India and other South Asian countries. Christianity is the fastest growing religion in those countries and in United State – the Islam is fastest growing religion. In those countries they don’t care what kind of law government has, they care what they themselves doing for the kingdom of God.
In America Christians spend too much time on “ if kids has permission to pray in school or not” instate of teaching kids at home how to pray, in USA Christians worry how many unsaved women having sex in school instate of trying to win those women for Christ, in USA Christians worry for the unborn babies, instate of wining the heart of a mother for Christ which ultimately world stop killing the unborn babies.
In the thread “The survivor's guide to exile” many wrote church might be purified after this election. Aha! Losing an election is persecution ? I guess we American Christian haven’t been persecuted for Christ that is why we don’t know what is “ religious persecution” , If the head would chop off for reading the Bible to others or putting in jail for gathering in some one’s home to worship Christ, only then we would see revival in our church.
One doesn't have to want prayer in school or a 'Christian' government to be concerned about the death of millions of babies; one just has to have a smidgeon of compassion, which I would hope all Christians strive for.
The reality is the church has always stood against abortion, and in her finest hour, many in the church stood against other societal ills like slavery. To think that Christians will influence a society by completely disconnecting from the realities of that society is absurd. Jesus and Paul both spoke to (and against) the leaders of their day about the concerns of their day, and we should imitate them while we still have the chance.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/11/2008 1:13:26 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6355
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
Christians in America are so privileged that they think in order to spread the word of God they need ““Christian nation” , “ Christian government”, . instate of putting faith in Christ and trusting His sprit to do the work they depend on their own ability to change people’s heart.
Being against the murder of innocent babies is something that any sane individual should want to adhere to that it does not have to be associated with the notions of a "Christian America" or a "Christian Government."
But when we have individuals who profess to be Christians then it is rather odd that they would not be against such a brutal crime.
The following sums up my thoughts perfectly, "Can you remember folks saying, "Don't push your morality on me!" when foes of abortion challenge its practice? Most folk appreciate our society's restrictions on rape, robbery, assault and murder - and those restrictions are based on morality, as is every aspect of our lives, whether collectively or individually.
As a believer in Jesus Christ, I'm convinced that moral absolutes exist. My convictions as a Christian include the sanctity of human life. If each individual human (including unborn babies) does not have worth, if we do not acknowledge our responsibility to care for the unwanted and the defenseless, we will find our collective path ending at the ovens of Auschwitz, the Gulags of Siberia, or the Abortion Chambers of America."
Regardless of political ideologies, a human should not be able to stand idle when such crimes are taking place.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/11/2008 2:18:39 PM
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Born_Again
Posts: 208
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
As a believer in Jesus Christ, I'm convinced that moral absolutes exist. My convictions as a Christian include the sanctity of human life. If each individual human (including unborn babies) does not have worth, if we do not acknowledge our responsibility to care for the unwanted and the defenseless, we will find our collective path ending at the ovens of Auschwitz, the Gulags of Siberia, or the Abortion Chambers of America."
Regardless of political ideologies, a human should not be able to stand idle when such crimes are taking place.
Could you show me from The New testament that Jesus stood up and stop the Romans when they humiliated, killed innocent Jews? Could you show me from New Testament that Paul stood up against Romans aggression for social justice ?
You wouldn’t find that in Jesus teaching, instate what you will find is that early church member suffered injustice so they may spread the gospel to unbeliever.
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/11/2008 2:19:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
Pro-life movement will come to life and be effective when so called Christian stop politicking and preaching/ witnessing the Gospel of Christ. Too many Christians thinks that they can bring moral change by forcing it to people, Praise God that McCain lost along with Evangelical Christen’s political ambition, may be now some Christian will leave politics and work in the church to bring change in people’s heart instate of bringing change in government.
Surely the mixed message will change the hearts of man... If abortion is truly wrong and people need a change of heart regarding no Christian has any business supporting the right to murder an unborn child. It's not about passing laws, but have a consistent and across the board approach. Being for the right to abort and being of the mind that it's wrong "only on Sunday" isn't going to do the job...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/11/2008 2:20:20 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2942
Joined: 6/13/2005
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Jesus and Paul had not voice in the government.
People living in America do.
We cannot pretend we don't and call that love.
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RE: Bush, the last pro-life president - 11/11/2008 2:33:20 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6355
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Born_Again
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
As a believer in Jesus Christ, I'm convinced that moral absolutes exist. My convictions as a Christian include the sanctity of human life. If each individual human (including unborn babies) does not have worth, if we do not acknowledge our responsibility to care for the unwanted and the defenseless, we will find our collective path ending at the ovens of Auschwitz, the Gulags of Siberia, or the Abortion Chambers of America."
Regardless of political ideologies, a human should not be able to stand idle when such crimes are taking place.
Could you show me from The New testament that Jesus stood up and stop the Romans when they humiliated, killed innocent Jews? Could you show me from New Testament that Paul stood up against Romans aggression for social justice ?
You wouldn’t find that in Jesus teaching, instate what you will find is that early church member suffered injustice so they may spread the gospel to unbeliever.
So if tomorrow the government says it is legal to murder the person next to you because you don't like their hair - then you would say it is OK as well?
Don't confuse the role of government (Romans) and the role of a self-professing Christian. Again, none of your deflections detract from the fact that abortion is the murder of an innocent human being.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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