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RE: Why Obama - 11/8/2008 11:01:58 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 869
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Man has all the free will he wants... Of course the collective free will of all of mankind from the dawn of time amounts to nothing stacked against the will of God... He does according to His will and none can stay His hand...
My point was that democracy is ultimately one person utilizing his free will, and another, and another, and another, etcetera. Unless you're saying that God is stuffing ballot boxes, I'm not sure how this compares to the despots in the bible, and as such, I'm not sure how God interferes without interfering with free will.
How does God affect a democracy while maintaining free will?
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RE: Why Obama - 11/8/2008 11:43:20 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Man has all the free will he wants... Of course the collective free will of all of mankind from the dawn of time amounts to nothing stacked against the will of God... He does according to His will and none can stay His hand...
My point was that democracy is ultimately one person utilizing his free will, and another, and another, and another, etcetera. Unless you're saying that God is stuffing ballot boxes, I'm not sure how this compares to the despots in the bible, and as such, I'm not sure how God interferes without interfering with free will.
How does God affect a democracy while maintaining free will?
Your view assumes God can only operate within certain boundaries... Creation belongs to God... He can and does what He please... He led Pharaoh around by the nose... The most powerful man on earth, even more so than any president. What makes you think you and I or anyone else for that matter isn't subject to the council of God and the fact He does according to the will of the army in heaven and none can stay His hand... Or for that matter question him...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why Obama - 11/8/2008 5:08:16 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
My opinion of the Christian right isn't colored by the mainstream media; it's colored by knowing them and living with them and talking to them and being one of them. I think there are plenty of nuts on the Christian right - no, not as many as the media would have people think, but there are enough. And those who aren't nuts are, IMO, WAY too tolerant and accepting of those who are.
It is to painted by the mainstream media... And if one really speaks the truth about God's word to folks who don't believe, and even to some who claim to believe especially things like creation, flood and other "hard to believe" concepts you will be thought of as a nut...
General public perception of Christians may be colored by the media, but I was pointing out that MY perception isn't. I'd include in my statement the general attitude of acceptance of individuals and organizations that peddle pseudoscience in the name of promoting creationism. That's an area infested more than perhaps any other with nuts, charlatans, and people generally unqualified to be making the claims that they are. I understand the reasons for believing in a young earth and a global flood, but that doesn't mean that a forged carving, a boat-shaped slab of mud on a mountainside, or a grossly simplified description of geological strata are legitimate support for that position. Yes, if you use bogus data to support these notions, then people will think you're nuts - and rightfully so. We Christians need to do a better job of vetting the people we listen to; and this is one area where we've failed most.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Why Obama - 11/9/2008 10:14:28 AM
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litfire2000
Posts: 265
Joined: 7/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
Why did the black population decide to come out in record numbers for this presidential candidate but not for the others of the past? Because, for better or worse, he was able to connect with them, articulate his positions on issues, and make them believe he cares about them in a way no other black candidate ever has. BTW he IS the first black candidate for PRESIDENT.
...the first from a major party there have been others
Alan Keyes for President
...the first from a major party to win that party's nomination
Jesse Jackson, candidate in 1984
Jesse predated him as a candidate by 24 years, but did not win the nomination.
_____________________________
Ps. 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem
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RE: Why Obama - 11/9/2008 12:39:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
My opinion of the Christian right isn't colored by the mainstream media; it's colored by knowing them and living with them and talking to them and being one of them. I think there are plenty of nuts on the Christian right - no, not as many as the media would have people think, but there are enough. And those who aren't nuts are, IMO, WAY too tolerant and accepting of those who are.
It is to painted by the mainstream media... And if one really speaks the truth about God's word to folks who don't believe, and even to some who claim to believe especially things like creation, flood and other "hard to believe" concepts you will be thought of as a nut...
General public perception of Christians may be colored by the media, but I was pointing out that MY perception isn't. I'd include in my statement the general attitude of acceptance of individuals and organizations that peddle pseudoscience in the name of promoting creationism. That's an area infested more than perhaps any other with nuts, charlatans, and people generally unqualified to be making the claims that they are. I understand the reasons for believing in a young earth and a global flood, but that doesn't mean that a forged carving, a boat-shaped slab of mud on a mountainside, or a grossly simplified description of geological strata are legitimate support for that position. Yes, if you use bogus data to support these notions, then people will think you're nuts - and rightfully so. We Christians need to do a better job of vetting the people we listen to; and this is one area where we've failed most.
-Dan.
If a Christan supports their view with the bible they are generally considered a fundamentalist nut. Sadly even by people who claim Christ on this very forum...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why Obama - 11/9/2008 2:13:30 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 2031
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
If a Christan supports their view with the bible they are generally considered a fundamentalist nut. Sadly even by people who claim Christ on this very forum...
While there's a bit of truth to that, it's an oversimplification and it still doesn't excuse the mass acceptance of bogus theories and quacks by the Christian community.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Why Obama - 11/9/2008 3:40:52 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
If a Christan supports their view with the bible they are generally considered a fundamentalist nut. Sadly even by people who claim Christ on this very forum...
While there's a bit of truth to that, it's an oversimplification and it still doesn't excuse the mass acceptance of bogus theories and quacks by the Christian community.
-Dan.
How is it an oversimplification? It's not the quacks in the Christian community that the world(really) has an issues with, it is the TRUTH of God's word... And I don't accept the bogus theories and quacks by those who claim Christ anymore than I do those who believe they can support homosexuality...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why Obama - 11/9/2008 5:02:09 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11449
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
This thread is venturing off topic from why Obama was elected into... how Christians view issues, etc.
Let's keep it on topic.
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RE: Why Obama - 11/9/2008 11:07:11 PM
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Acts29
Posts: 374
Joined: 1/14/2007
Status: offline
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I am not convinced that people voted on Obama for his qualifications to be president or not. I think some people voted for change. Because people do want things to change. However, I think that is all that voted on not the person who is guiding the change to come.
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RE: Why Obama - 11/9/2008 11:19:50 PM
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utilityfielder
Posts: 11545
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Home of the Champions
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Acts29
I am not convinced that people voted on Obama for his qualifications to be president or not. I think some people voted for change. Because people do want things to change. However, I think that is all that voted on not the person who is guiding the change to come.
Because he had a thin track record in politics he was able to position himself as a bland slate where people could project their desires of what they wanted done.
_____________________________
Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement. Ronald Reagan
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RE: Why Obama - 11/10/2008 10:43:27 AM
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laura...
Posts: 2921
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Man has all the free will he wants... Of course the collective free will of all of mankind from the dawn of time amounts to nothing stacked against the will of God... He does according to His will and none can stay His hand...
My point was that democracy is ultimately one person utilizing his free will, and another, and another, and another, etcetera. Unless you're saying that God is stuffing ballot boxes, I'm not sure how this compares to the despots in the bible, and as such, I'm not sure how God interferes without interfering with free will.
How does God affect a democracy while maintaining free will?
Your view assumes God can only operate within certain boundaries... Creation belongs to God... He can and does what He please... He led Pharaoh around by the nose... The most powerful man on earth, even more so than any president. What makes you think you and I or anyone else for that matter isn't subject to the council of God and the fact He does according to the will of the army in heaven and none can stay His hand... Or for that matter question him...
Romans 13:1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Why Obama - 11/10/2008 1:15:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Man has all the free will he wants... Of course the collective free will of all of mankind from the dawn of time amounts to nothing stacked against the will of God... He does according to His will and none can stay His hand...
My point was that democracy is ultimately one person utilizing his free will, and another, and another, and another, etcetera. Unless you're saying that God is stuffing ballot boxes, I'm not sure how this compares to the despots in the bible, and as such, I'm not sure how God interferes without interfering with free will.
How does God affect a democracy while maintaining free will?
Your view assumes God can only operate within certain boundaries... Creation belongs to God... He can and does what He please... He led Pharaoh around by the nose... The most powerful man on earth, even more so than any president. What makes you think you and I or anyone else for that matter isn't subject to the council of God and the fact He does according to the will of the army in heaven and none can stay His hand... Or for that matter question him...
Romans 13:1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Your point?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why Obama - 11/10/2008 2:04:45 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2921
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Man has all the free will he wants... Of course the collective free will of all of mankind from the dawn of time amounts to nothing stacked against the will of God... He does according to His will and none can stay His hand...
My point was that democracy is ultimately one person utilizing his free will, and another, and another, and another, etcetera. Unless you're saying that God is stuffing ballot boxes, I'm not sure how this compares to the despots in the bible, and as such, I'm not sure how God interferes without interfering with free will.
How does God affect a democracy while maintaining free will?
Your view assumes God can only operate within certain boundaries... Creation belongs to God... He can and does what He please... He led Pharaoh around by the nose... The most powerful man on earth, even more so than any president. What makes you think you and I or anyone else for that matter isn't subject to the council of God and the fact He does according to the will of the army in heaven and none can stay His hand... Or for that matter question him...
Romans 13:1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Your point?
My point is that God establishes who is in authority and appoints those who govern us regardless of what method we employ.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Why Obama - 11/10/2008 2:15:45 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Man has all the free will he wants... Of course the collective free will of all of mankind from the dawn of time amounts to nothing stacked against the will of God... He does according to His will and none can stay His hand...
My point was that democracy is ultimately one person utilizing his free will, and another, and another, and another, etcetera. Unless you're saying that God is stuffing ballot boxes, I'm not sure how this compares to the despots in the bible, and as such, I'm not sure how God interferes without interfering with free will.
How does God affect a democracy while maintaining free will?
Your view assumes God can only operate within certain boundaries... Creation belongs to God... He can and does what He please... He led Pharaoh around by the nose... The most powerful man on earth, even more so than any president. What makes you think you and I or anyone else for that matter isn't subject to the council of God and the fact He does according to the will of the army in heaven and none can stay His hand... Or for that matter question him...
Romans 13:1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Your point?
My point is that God establishes who is in authority and appoints those who govern us regardless of what method we employ.
Okie dokie...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Why Obama - 11/10/2008 2:18:07 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1304
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
Status: offline
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Laura, how does that jive with Luke 5-7? Has G-d given over control of this world to the evil one, or not?
_____________________________
Give a hoot, eat yer Lute, Der's no risk in Lutefisk.
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RE: Why Obama - 11/10/2008 2:27:48 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2921
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HighPlainsDrifter
Laura, how does that jive with Luke 5-7? Has G-d given over control of this world to the evil one, or not?
Can you be more specific with your reference?
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Why Obama - 11/10/2008 3:05:01 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8015
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
As much as the conservatives would like to believe that Obama is way way left, he really isn't. You'll see.
Only if you call being the most liberal senator not being way left.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Why Obama - 11/10/2008 3:08:00 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8015
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Let's face it - government will never be perfect nor fix all problems.
That's because government is not the solution, in most cases it's the problem. We'd not be in the economic mess we are in if the democrats in government had not forced the banks to lend to people who couldn't repay the loans. Every time government gets involved in a segment of business that segment suffers in the long run.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: Why Obama - 11/10/2008 11:43:32 PM
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Acts29
Posts: 374
Joined: 1/14/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Let's face it - government will never be perfect nor fix all problems.
That's because government is not the solution, in most cases it's the problem. We'd not be in the economic mess we are in if the democrats in government had not forced the banks to lend to people who couldn't repay the loans. Every time government gets involved in a segment of business that segment suffers in the long run.
I think it goes to our core values.
Dependent on
Government?
OR
God?
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