On the matter of abortion: should politicians represent their constituants, or ignore them?
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On the matter of abortion: should politicians represent... - 11/7/2008 7:54:46 AM
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Lizahana
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This thread is not going to be about whether or not abortion is right - there are hundreds of other threads about this. This thread is about the fact that in the 2008 election, the anti-abortion referendums were not voted in by voters (as a side note, the voters said no to gay marriage):
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1856820,00.html
And so, should politicians represent their constituants on the issue of abortion or not (or, for that matter - should they represent their constituants on any matter or not)?
I know that many will say, well, politicians should represent those that are not here yet - but can you really say what that would be? Should the rights of the unborn supercede tax-paying constituants?
Or, are politicians suppsed to be 'moral' couselors to we the people - is that their job?
These are just questions - I just would like to know your thoughts - thank you in advance. And thank you in advance for not turning this into a 'diss-fest' on anyone participating in it.
Peace and God bless,
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/7/2008 8:44:01 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Should the rights of the unborn supercede tax-paying constituants?
Change the word "unborn" to disabled who cannot work, the elderly who cannot work, children who do not work, you get my drift don't you. You go take it a step further and say those who pay "less taxes" vs those who pay more taxes. Those who "take less from society" than those to "give to society".
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/7/2008 3:31:33 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
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No, politicians are the people least qualified to be "moral counselors".
Elected officials do have the obligation to represent the wishes of their constituants but must also uphold the laws and state/US Constitutions as part of their oath of office. If the wish of the constituancy is in opposition to the laws/constitution, then elected officials must uphold the law/constituion rather than the wishes of the constituancy.
As far as abortion goes, it would be more successful to focus efforts on making it unnecessary via changing opinion rather than trying to change the law. Secular pro-life education is very effective at changing people's opinions about abortion and when life begins because it is based upon medical fact rather than religious opinion. Secular sex-ed can be very effective in promoting abstinence when it presents medical/psychological facts in regards to sexuality, conception/pregnancy, STD's, methods and effectiveness of birth control, and advantages of abstinence in mental/physical well-being.
Making sexual purity and personal modesty "cool" or showing that it is advantageous is more effective than trying to foist it via legislation. Or to put it in perspective, showing someone "I can" beats telling them "you will" any day. Where oh where are the Christians in the fashion world?
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/7/2008 4:33:32 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
I know that many will say, well, politicians should represent those that are not here yet - but can you really say what that would be? Should the rights of the unborn supercede tax-paying constituants?
This is the fundamental flaw in the argument; they are 'here; already, and no constituents 'rights' should ever supercede another's right to life.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/7/2008 7:13:09 PM
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rlj
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The point of the pro live movement should be to give a voice to those who have no voice.
It shouldn't be to use you to get your vote so that you can get elected.
I hope I'm not straying too far but what bothers me about the OP is the fact that those laws that could have challenged Roe v. Wade were voted down by the general public.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/7/2008 7:37:30 PM
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FreddieD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
I know that many will say, well, politicians should represent those that are not here yet - but can you really say what that would be? Should the rights of the unborn supercede tax-paying constituants?
Only one problem, the unborn don't have rights under the constitution. It specificly refers to others born.
FreddieD
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/7/2008 10:07:56 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreddieD
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
I know that many will say, well, politicians should represent those that are not here yet - but can you really say what that would be? Should the rights of the unborn supercede tax-paying constituants?
Only one problem, the unborn don't have rights under the constitution. It specificly refers to others born.
FreddieD
Scott Peterson was charged and convicted for the murder of his unborn son...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/7/2008 10:09:50 PM
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relady
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quote:
And so, should politicians represent their constituants on the issue of abortion IMO, on this issue they should be aware of what the majority of their constituents want and vote accordingly.
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/7/2008 10:13:51 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
And so, should politicians represent their constituants on the issue of abortion or not (or, for that matter - should they represent their constituants on any matter or not)?
They hold themselves accountable to God, since regardless if they believe or not they are accountable... Even more so being in a place of ordained authority...
quote:
I know that many will say, well, politicians should represent those that are not here yet - but can you really say what that would be? Should the rights of the unborn supercede tax-paying constituants?
There many folks outside the womb who are not paying taxes who have rights... Some even seem to have the right to be entitled to the fruits of the labor of others...
quote:
Or, are politicians suppsed to be 'moral' couselors to we the people - is that their job?
According to God's word it is an abomination for rulers to be unjust... It would be in their and those they are over best interest if they were to act in a moral fashion...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/7/2008 10:17:49 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
And so, should politicians represent their constituants on the issue of abortion IMO, on this issue they should be aware of what the majority of their constituents want and vote accordingly.
What does God have to say...
Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/7/2008 10:23:23 PM
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relady
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If they cannot in good conscience represent their constituents then perhaps they should find another line of work.
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/7/2008 10:38:53 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
If they cannot in good conscience represent their constituents then perhaps they should find another line of work.
Surely God will not accept the excuse they were merely doing their job...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/8/2008 12:17:48 AM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
This is the fundamental flaw in the argument; they are 'here; already, and no constituents 'rights' should ever supercede another's right to life.
Amen
quote:
If they cannot in good conscience represent their constituents then perhaps they should find another line of work.
I think you hit upon the favored resolution of this moral quandry of many conservatives here concerning Obama. 
Just joking.
_____________________________
Be my friend!
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/8/2008 9:43:24 AM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1049
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
No, politicians are the people least qualified to be "moral counselors".
Elected officials do have the obligation to represent the wishes of their constituants but must also uphold the laws and state/US Constitutions as part of their oath of office. If the wish of the constituancy is in opposition to the laws/constitution, then elected officials must uphold the law/constituion rather than the wishes of the constituancy.
As far as abortion goes, it would be more successful to focus efforts on making it unnecessary via changing opinion rather than trying to change the law. Secular pro-life education is very effective at changing people's opinions about abortion and when life begins because it is based upon medical fact rather than religious opinion. Secular sex-ed can be very effective in promoting abstinence when it presents medical/psychological facts in regards to sexuality, conception/pregnancy, STD's, methods and effectiveness of birth control, and advantages of abstinence in mental/physical well-being.
Making sexual purity and personal modesty "cool" or showing that it is advantageous is more effective than trying to foist it via legislation. Or to put it in perspective, showing someone "I can" beats telling them "you will" any day. Where oh where are the Christians in the fashion world?
Thank you for your reply.
I agree and well said. I would also like to see the law changed, though. However, looking at the referendums, it looks as if many do not want it changed.
Peace and God bless,
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/8/2008 9:53:40 AM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1049
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I know that many will say, well, politicians should represent those that are not here yet - but can you really say what that would be? Should the rights of the unborn supercede tax-paying constituants?
This is the fundamental flaw in the argument; they are 'here; already, and no constituents 'rights' should ever supercede another's right to life.
Well, Jack, it was not actually an arguement, but a question - which is why I used the '?' symbol.
I voted for Obama. I agree with him on all of his issues, with the exception of FOCA. I cannot be a single issue voter. I really do not think this bill will make it - however, I am going to write to Obama to ask that he not sign it; and all of my representatives.
I know many on here subscribe to this line of thought: if a politician is pro-choice, they are evil. If you vote for politician that is pro-choice, you are evil. I do not believe this line of thought at all.
I thought, well, I bet the general public is pro-life - therefore, Obama is entirely in the wrong here. However, given the anti-abortion referendums that were voted down on this singular issue, this clearly is not the case.
Therefore I concluded that perhaps the pro-choice politicians support such stances as being pro-choice because, well, they are representing their constituents.
So, I take it that you don't think that politicians should have to represent their constituents on the matter of abortion, then, correct? Two red 'classically' red states, Colorado and South Dakota, voted these anti-abortion measures down. I just want a yes or no.
Thank you in advance, Peace and God bless,
Thank you in advance,
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/8/2008 10:01:13 AM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1049
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
The point of the pro live movement should be to give a voice to those who have no voice.
It shouldn't be to use you to get your vote so that you can get elected.
I hope I'm not straying too far but what bothers me about the OP is the fact that those laws that could have challenged Roe v. Wade were voted down by the general public.
Hi rlj,
My post, really, is to conjecture about why a politician would be pro-choice or not.
There are many on here that dismiss any politician who is pro-choice as pure evil; that anyone who votes for them as pure evil. I don't believe this. I admit, I voted for Obama. I agree with him on all stances, except his abortion stance - but I can't be a single issue voter.
In any event, reading a lot of the posts on these forums, one would think that the American public must be pro-life. However, given the polls I have read, the fact that the anti-abortion bans were voted down in two classically red states, this is not the case.
And so, my question, then, is should politicians ignore their constituents on this matter or not?
Thanks, Peace and God bless,
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/8/2008 10:04:30 AM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1049
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
And so, should politicians represent their constituants on the issue of abortion or not (or, for that matter - should they represent their constituants on any matter or not)?
They hold themselves accountable to God, since regardless if they believe or not they are accountable... Even more so being in a place of ordained authority...
quote:
I know that many will say, well, politicians should represent those that are not here yet - but can you really say what that would be? Should the rights of the unborn supercede tax-paying constituants?
There many folks outside the womb who are not paying taxes who have rights... Some even seem to have the right to be entitled to the fruits of the labor of others...
quote:
Or, are politicians suppsed to be 'moral' couselors to we the people - is that their job?
According to God's word it is an abomination for rulers to be unjust... It would be in their and those they are over best interest if they were to act in a moral fashion...
Ok - John - it's a simple yes, no question. So I take it, you think that politicians should not listen to consituents on the matter of abortion, correct? What other issues, then, should they not listen to their constituents on?
Thanks, Peace and God bless,
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/8/2008 10:35:21 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2350
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
And so, my question, then, is should politicians ignore their constituents on this matter or not?
On the federal level yes on the local level no. Those on the federal level have no business running the states.
quote:
There are many on here that dismiss any politician who is pro-choice as pure evil; that anyone who votes for them as pure evil.
Ironically that makes non-christian pro lifers (such as McCain) pure good which is backwards from the Bible I read.
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/8/2008 11:12:14 AM
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leonfigg3
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As I get older and learn more about our government the more I realize that, to a large degree, we Americans neither have a very good understanding what our government is all about, nor how it really works.
The fact is, that we never have had a good understanding of it, yet it does work, somehow.
We expect more of our politicians than any human can posibly do. We expect them to represent and vote the way their constituents expect. However, the constituients of any elected politician is very diverse, culturally, ethnically, racially, and religiously/spiritually. How can any one individual vote in such a way that is truely representative of such a wide range of thinking? They can not. As JFK wrote in his book,"Profiles In Courage" the best a politician could do is vote his conscious and let the chips fall where they may. He is never going to vote the way all of his constituents would want him to.
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/8/2008 11:14:42 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Ok - John - it's a simple yes, no question. So I take it, you think that politicians should not listen to consituents on the matter of abortion, correct? What other issues, then, should they not listen to their constituents on?
I said they should obey God first... Your questions doesn't remove that being true nor the consequences surrounding it.
quote:
Thanks, Peace and God bless,
God bless?In all seriousness what does God have to do with anything? You seem to dismiss the fact that one is to serve God first and foremost. There is no responsibility on earth that comes before God.
And your vote for Obama lends support for his abortion agenda. There is no way you can parcel out your vote.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/8/2008 11:30:33 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
I voted for Obama. I agree with him on all of his issues, with the exception of FOCA. I cannot be a single issue voter. I really do not think this bill will make it - however, I am going to write to Obama to ask that he not sign it; and all of my representatives.
There is nothing in the past or present that would lend support for Obama not to sign it... And your vote for Obama is far more powerful than some letter that will never see the light of day to people who have NO regard for the life of the unborn... You really think anyone here that can think past pouring milk on their cereal thinks you are not for abortion?
quote:
I know many on here subscribe to this line of thought: if a politician is pro-choice, they are evil. If you vote for politician that is pro-choice, you are evil. I do not believe this line of thought at all.
Which means one could support a member of NAMBLA for office and you couldn't think ill of them...
What's really funny is you claim abortion is wrong, that you don't support it(regardless of your voting record) yet if any mentions of consequences is mentioned you balk.
quote:
I thought, well, I bet the general public is pro-life - therefore, Obama is entirely in the wrong here. However, given the anti-abortion referendums that were voted down on this singular issue, this clearly is not the case.
The will of the people doesn't make something right...
Obama is wrong because... He claims Christ... Abortion is wrong... He chooses to do wrong in the face of right... In fact for him to even be neutral on the matter is wrong given God's word.
quote:
Therefore I concluded that perhaps the pro-choice politicians support such stances as being pro-choice because, well, they are representing their constituents.
They do so because they are serving their own self interest first. Certainly not God's...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/8/2008 2:42:53 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7627
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Ok - John - it's a simple yes, no question. So I take it, you think that politicians should not listen to consituents on the matter of abortion, correct? What other issues, then, should they not listen to their constituents on?
I shudder to think what our country would be like if people had this mentality when it came to the slavery issue or civil rights laws.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/8/2008 8:25:10 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1049
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
Ok - John - it's a simple yes, no question. So I take it, you think that politicians should not listen to consituents on the matter of abortion, correct? What other issues, then, should they not listen to their constituents on?
I said they should obey God first... Your questions doesn't remove that being true nor the consequences surrounding it.
quote:
Thanks, Peace and God bless,
God bless?In all seriousness what does God have to do with anything? You seem to dismiss the fact that one is to serve God first and foremost. There is no responsibility on earth that comes before God.
And your vote for Obama lends support for his abortion agenda. There is no way you can parcel out your vote.
I take that as a no - that the politician should not represent their constituents on this matter - that's all I asked for.
You still did not deem which other issues a politician should ignore from constituents - please provide them.
Peace and God bless,
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/8/2008 8:28:12 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1049
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lizahana
I voted for Obama. I agree with him on all of his issues, with the exception of FOCA. I cannot be a single issue voter. I really do not think this bill will make it - however, I am going to write to Obama to ask that he not sign it; and all of my representatives.
There is nothing in the past or present that would lend support for Obama not to sign it... And your vote for Obama is far more powerful than some letter that will never see the light of day to people who have NO regard for the life of the unborn... You really think anyone here that can think past pouring milk on their cereal thinks you are not for abortion?
quote:
I know many on here subscribe to this line of thought: if a politician is pro-choice, they are evil. If you vote for politician that is pro-choice, you are evil. I do not believe this line of thought at all.
Which means one could support a member of NAMBLA for office and you couldn't think ill of them...
What's really funny is you claim abortion is wrong, that you don't support it(regardless of your voting record) yet if any mentions of consequences is mentioned you balk.
quote:
I thought, well, I bet the general public is pro-life - therefore, Obama is entirely in the wrong here. However, given the anti-abortion referendums that were voted down on this singular issue, this clearly is not the case.
The will of the people doesn't make something right...
Obama is wrong because... He claims Christ... Abortion is wrong... He chooses to do wrong in the face of right... In fact for him to even be neutral on the matter is wrong given God's word.
quote:
Therefore I concluded that perhaps the pro-choice politicians support such stances as being pro-choice because, well, they are representing their constituents.
They do so because they are serving their own self interest first. Certainly not God's...
John,
I did not ask if the will of people made anything right. I asked, simply, if you think a politician should represent their constituents on the matter of abortion or not. If you don't think politicians should represent their constituents - then please provide other issues that you think politicians should ignore, when it comes to their constituents.
I don't think I'm being ambiguous in any way.
Peace and God bless,
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RE: On the matter of abortion: should politicians repre... - 11/8/2008 8:29:45 PM
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Lizahana
Posts: 1049
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Ok - John - it's a simple yes, no question. So I take it, you think that politicians should not listen to consituents on the matter of abortion, correct? What other issues, then, should they not listen to their constituents on?
I shudder to think what our country would be like if people had this mentality when it came to the slavery issue or civil rights laws.
Why don't you ask the many African Americans who voted for Obama, like I did, then, and for that matter, also ask Obama.
I have never seen so many people of all races come together in celebration in this country, and in other countries, ever, in my history.
Peace and God bless,
< Message edited by Lizahana -- 11/8/2008 8:41:05 PM >
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