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RE: romans 7 - 11/16/2008 2:43:29 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Jeeeezzz, I just love it;. . .
Good Lord, . . .
Who are you talking to? I don't know anyone here who has either of those avitar names let alone their actual names.
Living without sin. Give me a break.
I hear ya. I mean, really, the absurdity of the idea ... that Christ actually set us free from the servitude of sin, that we died to sin, that we have been born to righteousness, that sin shall not have dominion over us.
What a crazy notion. Those guys Paul, John and Peter must have been smoking some good stuff.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. (2 Pet. 1:10)
You missed my point. Yes, we need to give diligence to make our calling and election sure. That is because we are subject to temptation and as Paul says, (verse19) "I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway." This is not inevitable. However, there is only one person I know of who was able to completely overcome it. The failure to show due diligence in the post quoted is proof that even those who profess to be sinless are deceiving themselves. The first act of prevention is to recognize the risks and the first step in repentance is recognition of the misstep. As Paul tells us, (1 Cor 10:12) "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!"
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: romans 7 - 11/16/2008 9:37:27 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5775
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The failure to show due diligence in the post quoted is proof that even those who profess to be sinless are deceiving themselves. The first act of prevention is to recognize the risks and the first step in repentance is recognition of the misstep. As Paul tells us, (1 Cor 10:12) "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!"
I really do not see how you make the giant leap from Paul's admonition to be careful to people decieving themselves by thinking that one does not have to sin.
The "Be careful" is so that one does not sin.
Scripture is most plain that sin is a choice and can be avoided by Believers;
(1Co 10:13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
So since Goe makes a way to escape the temptaton; I think we should take that avenue of escape rather than plan on committing sin.
John does say "IF" we sin, not when we sin in;
(1Jn 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
So I praise my God that we are forgiving of our sins at salvation and provisions are made for us that we are no longer slaves to sin; and can choose not to sin.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: romans 7 - 11/17/2008 8:06:07 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3055
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quote:
Ok wait....are you saying that you are without sin?
quote:
How can anyone claim to be sinless? It's actually quite simple, AbbyGrace. By the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit I am sinless at this moment! God has cleansed me from all unrighteousness (by His grace and power), I am not sinning at this moment (by His grace and power), and I do not intend to disobey God in my next moment of daily living (by His grace and power). Thus, I not only claim to be sinless, I am without sin - by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: romans 7 - 11/17/2008 10:43:20 AM
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Diolectic
Posts: 797
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quote:
ORIGINAL: twincities
Hello,
I wanted to start a discussion on Romans chapter 7. Now I know that we will need to look at other chapters too but start here about out internal struggle with sin. For me at times i feel I am stuck in this chapter, meaning certian sins still plague me that I have struggled since I have known the Lord. thoughts and discussion please. Romans 7 (Paraphrase)
1 I speak to them that know the law; don't you know brethren that the law is the standard for righteousness of which man is required to abide by as long as he lives?
I am replacing the woman to be more personal & the husband to be the righteous requirements of the law. As the husband lives the requirements of him & to him aply, but if & when he dies, they are no longer applicable.
2 You are bound by the requirements of the law so long as you are under them; but if the requirements of the law are taken out of the way, you are loosed from them.
Col 2:14
Romans 8:4
Romans 7:2
3 So then if, while the righteous requirements of the law are still binding & you don't abide by them, you shall be called a transgressor: but, if the righteous requirements of the law are taken out of the way, you are free from them; so that you are not a transgressor, even though you don't abide by them.
Col 2:14
James 2:11
4 Therefore my brothers, you are truly become separated from the requirement of the law through the body of Christ; that you should be bound to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Colossians 2:11
5 When we were in the flesh (not walking after the Spirit), our sympathy for our unlawful effections animated our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 8:6
Galatians 5:24
Colossians 3:5
6 But now we are delivered from the requirements of the law, having been (legaly) brought out from under them. That we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter
2Corinth 3:6
(We were held to the righteous requirements of the law)
7 What shall we say then? Are the requirements themselves bad? Let that not be! Because I did not know my desires were unlawful untill I found the law to be against them; for also I did not know lust [was wrong] until I read the requirement, "You shall not lust."
Genesis 2:17
Ex. 20:17
8 Now lawlessness took its start through the commandment, and from that, it brought about (revealed) in me all that were truly unlawful desires.
(This next part of the verse should be read as part of verse 9
Now, when there are no requirements, there is no lawlessness... Romans 4:15
9 ...And I was alive when I didn't know the requirements of the law, but when I heard of that specific requirement ("You shall not lust." v.7), then my effections became known as unlawful, and I died spiritualy.
10 And the specific requirements which were to give eternal life, I found them to be the death of me.
11 Because lawlessness took its start through the commandment, it deceived me (by thinking that my desires were lawfull before I knew the law), and by those commandments, made me realize that I was actually dead.
12 so the righteous requirements of the law are holy and the specific requirements are also holy and righteous and good.
13 Was then that which is good become death to me? God forbid. But, the requirements exist for the reason of making unlawful effections to be evidently unlawful. It made death to be evident within me by that which is good; In other words, the requirements exist so that my unlawful effections would be evidently more wicked in contrast to the specific requirements
The contrast between the law & our sin.
Roman 5:20
14 For we know that the requirements are spiritual, but I am soulish, living after the flesh, having been sold into slavery to my own unlawful effections.
(this verse is key to understand the following verses)
Romans 6:16-20, Galatians 5:17b
15 I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate
James 1:8
16 But if I do what I don't prefer, I am actually agreeing with the requirements that they are good.
17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but my own fleshly desires dwelling in me.
Romans 7:5&20
18 I know that nothing of virtue is in my flesh. However, I am willing to do good (wiling to have the right effections), but, I don't know how to do it.
19 I don't do the good that I actually want to do, but I do the evil that I don't want to do.
20 Now if I habitually do what I actually prefer not to do, it is no longer I who am doing it, but my own fleshly desires that dwell within me.
Romans 7:5&17
21 I find then a standard, that when I desire to do good, corruption (inability & weakness of the flesh) is right there with me.
22 For I delight in the requirements of God according to my true self.
23 But now, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.
Romans 7:14, Galatians 5:17b
Spiritual Death is the effect of sin according to Romans 6:23.
Spiritual Death is the separation from God just as physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body.
The ''law of sin'' is the demands of my own fleshly desires & effections against known law that bring me in opposition to God which separates me from Him.
The ''law of sin'' includes the inability of the flesh to deny its own fleshly desires apart from the Spirit & faith in HIM.
This concludes that which is in our ''members'' (v.23) are the unlawful effections &/or desires which brings about spiritual death.
24 ''O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?''
After the righteous requirements of the Law of God have done their job, everyone will end up saying this.
25 With the mind, which is my actual being, I truly agree to the righteous requirements of the Law of God, and with the flesh, I serve the requirements of my own fleshly desires, which is death.
I Hope this Paraphrase puts it in a way that you can personaly understand it.
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RE: romans 7 - 11/17/2008 4:01:20 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The failure to show due diligence in the post quoted is proof that even those who profess to be sinless are deceiving themselves. The first act of prevention is to recognize the risks and the first step in repentance is recognition of the misstep. As Paul tells us, (1 Cor 10:12) "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!"
I really do not see how you make the giant leap from Paul's admonition to be careful to people decieving themselves by thinking that one does not have to sin.
The "Be careful" is so that one does not sin.
Scripture is most plain that sin is a choice and can be avoided by Believers;
(1Co 10:13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
So since Goe makes a way to escape the temptaton; I think we should take that avenue of escape rather than plan on committing sin.
John does say "IF" we sin, not when we sin in;
(1Jn 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
So I praise my God that we are forgiving of our sins at salvation and provisions are made for us that we are no longer slaves to sin; and can choose not to sin.
Thanks
RC
Yes, we can choose not to sin, however, I have yet to meet or hear of anyone, apart from the Messiah, who has been able to do it. I noticed you did not respond to my pointing out your us of a term you used and a term similar to one you use to refer to Adonai, when you where not addressing or refering to Him. I guess this doesn't count because it is in the past already. I hope you will forgive me if I accused you in error. Oh, that's right I don't need to ask your forgiveness that statement is in the past now and even if you go back and reread it every time you read it it is in the past each time you finish.
I do agree we need to focus on the positive. However, this refusal to acknowledge one's propensity to sin because one is not sinning at this moment in time is not reasonable since a moment is infinitely small. Therefore, one can refuse to acknowledge anything including ones own existance if one insists on making this arguement.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: romans 7 - 11/17/2008 4:07:35 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Ok wait....are you saying that you are without sin?
quote:
How can anyone claim to be sinless? It's actually quite simple, AbbyGrace. By the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit I am sinless at this moment! God has cleansed me from all unrighteousness (by His grace and power), I am not sinning at this moment (by His grace and power), and I do not intend to disobey God in my next moment of daily living (by His grace and power). Thus, I not only claim to be sinless, I am without sin - by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
As I stated above, I do agree we need to focus on the positive. However, this refusal to acknowledge one's propensity to sin because one is not sinning at this moment in time is not reasonable since a moment is infinitely small. Therefore, one can refuse to acknowledge anything including ones own existance if one insists on making this argument.
If we accept that premiss, we can not protect ourselves against anybody because one can not presume that that person is not "reformed". After all, all they need to do is "plead the blood" and say they do not intend on repeating the behavior. Under the aforementioned doctrine we are obligated to take them at their word.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: romans 7 - 11/17/2008 4:22:35 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3055
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
However, this refusal to acknowledge one's propensity to sin because one is not sinning at this moment in time is not reasonable since a moment is infinitely small. Please post just one Scripture that indicates a Christian has the propensity to sin, Bluethread. I would be happy to cite a least two dozen that state just the opposite! 1 John 3:4-10 contains at least three references in seven short verses that totally negate your false assertion that everyone has "propensity to sin". The only unreasonable attitude discussed on this thread is that Christians must sin!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: romans 7 - 11/17/2008 5:53:42 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
However, this refusal to acknowledge one's propensity to sin because one is not sinning at this moment in time is not reasonable since a moment is infinitely small. Please post just one Scripture that indicates a Christian has the propensity to sin, Bluethread. I would be happy to cite a least two dozen that state just the opposite! 1 John 3:4-10 contains at least three references in seven short verses that totally negate your false assertion that everyone has "propensity to sin". The only unreasonable attitude discussed on this thread is that Christians must sin!
I have not said nor have I seen one post on this thread, apart from your assertion, saying believers "must sin". This passage tells us that Paul had a propensity to sin.
Verse 14-15 "So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate."
Now that I have complied with your request, please show me one person, appart from the Messiah, who does not struggle as Paul did.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/18/2008 2:17:33 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 7:16:53 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5775
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Yes, we can choose not to sin, however, I have yet to meet or hear of anyone, apart from the Messiah, who has been able to do it.
I am glad we agree that one can choose not to sin. As for me I have met a few folks whom I believe in my heart walked in sanctification, though of course they were so humble that they would not discuss it.
quote:
I do agree we need to focus on the positive. However, this refusal to acknowledge one's propensity to sin because one is not sinning at this moment in time is not reasonable since a moment is infinitely small. Therefore, one can refuse to acknowledge anything including ones own existance if one insists on making this arguement.
If as Believers we can choose not to sin, and we understand that God does not want us to sin and says so repeatedly; then we should be striving to that end and not planning on being disobedeint by sinning.
I do believe the thinking of "I am going to sin" is in contrast to the Word in;
(Eph 4:27) Neither give place to the devil.
And on that rare occasion that a Believer does sin, they will know because that is the job of the Holy Spirit to tell them; and He will.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 11/18/2008 7:24:46 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 8:49:06 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3055
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
This passage tells us that Paul had a propensity to sin. Before Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit (Romans 7), he had the propensity to sin. After Paul was made alive in the Spirit, he no longer struggled with sin (Romans 8). Before I was entirely sanctified by God's grace and power, I struggled with sin. After I surrendered my will to God's Will and was cleansed from my sinful nature, I no longer have the propensity to sin. That's how God has worked and continues to work in my life, Bluethread; how He works in yours is between you and Him!
quote:
Now that I have complied with your request, please show me one person, appart from the Messiah, who does not struggle as Paul did. If you would like to come and visit me someday for observational purposes, I pray God will give me His grace and power to show you how the Holy Spirit living in me struggles on my behalf so that I may choose to obey Him as I live victoriously over sin. I'm truly sorry that you have no one in your circle of acquaintances who is not blessed with this glorious grace.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 8:58:37 AM
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LBolt
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Joined: 11/30/2007
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I think the fact that believers do sin illustrates that we have a propensity to sin, however we also have the propensity to live righteous. We still have a choice. Paul said towards the end of his life wrote "I am chief of sinners". Now this to me is mind boggling!
The constant exhortations to walk in the Spirit (Ruach) and not the flesh is a reminder that there is a propensity due to the weakness of the flesh. But we also have a propensity to walk in righteousness to the Holy Ghost (Ruach HaChodesh).
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 10:35:41 AM
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chasbeck1
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The key to understanding chapter 7 is to read chapter 6 and chapter 8.
Chapter 6 shows that Christ died to sin, once for all, (verse 10) and the
life He lives , He lives to God. If we died with Christ, (verse 8) we believe
that we should also live with Him. If we died to sin with Christ, then sin no
longer has control over us. Chapter 8 verse 1 says that there is therefore
now "NO" condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk
according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Verse 2, For the law of the Spirit of life "IN CHRIST JESUS" has made me "FREE" from the law of
sin and death. You see, Christ released us from the power of the law through His death on the cross, having nailed it, (the law) to the cross
dissarming it, (Colossians 2:14-15) making null and void it's power over
the flesh. Dying to self is a daily process, and living to Christ is also a
daily process, by renewing our minds by the reading of the Word of God.
Romans 13:14 says it well, But put on the Lord Jesus Christ,and make no
provision for the flesh, to fulfill it's lusts. The flesh still wars against the
Spirit of Christ that lives in us. When we feed our Spirits with the Word of
God, then the flesh becomes less and Christ becomes more.
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 2:29:43 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
This passage tells us that Paul had a propensity to sin. Before Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit (Romans 7), he had the propensity to sin. After Paul was made alive in the Spirit, he no longer struggled with sin (Romans 8). Before I was entirely sanctified by God's grace and power, I struggled with sin. After I surrendered my will to God's Will and was cleansed from my sinful nature, I no longer have the propensity to sin. That's how God has worked and continues to work in my life, Bluethread; how He works in yours is between you and Him!
You have a right to you interpretation. However, I think you might be going a little overboard with your presumption regarding Paul's day to day attitude.
quote:
Now that I have complied with your request, please show me one person, appart from the Messiah, who does not struggle as Paul did. If you would like to come and visit me someday for observational purposes, I pray God will give me His grace and power to show you how the Holy Spirit living in me struggles on my behalf so that I may choose to obey Him as I live victoriously over sin. I'm truly sorry that you have no one in your circle of acquaintances who is not blessed with this glorious grace.
OK, but on what is the standard I am permitted to use in making this evaluation. Though I am willing to have my life evaluated. I would be reluctant to bet my life on receiving a perfect score.
Also, since there appears to be no two people who agree on all matters of belief and practice in this forum, only one of us can be living this life you propose. Of course that must be you. So, why is it that only you have this direct line to Adonai's Spirit?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/18/2008 3:36:18 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 2:48:34 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3055
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
OK, but on what is the standard I am permitted to use in making this evaluation. Though I am willing to have my life evaluated. I would be reluctant to bet my life on receiving a perfect score. That's really up to you, Bluethread, since you're the one claiming that everybody has the "propensity to sin". You and I have an entirely different definition of "perfection", as we have discussed before. I willingly "bet my life" on the perfection of Christ's Love filling my heart every day. Indeed, His perfect love is the only reason we can live victoriously over sin.
So it all boils down to what God has done in my life and the lives of those sanctified Believers with whom I interact regularly. I do not "struggle with sin" when I crucify the sinful nature and allow the Holy Spirit to control my thoughts and actions. When I insist on my ability to choose, I will (sooner than later) resume a life of struggle.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 2:54:29 PM
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twincities
Posts: 95
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wow.. what happens when I don't check a post for a few days.... 2 pages already...
It seems some claim not to sin or that the only thing we can do is sin... or we don't struggle with sin anymore..
Here is my summery of the book of Romans
Chapter 1 - the fall of man, God's eternal attributes
2 - judgement of sin
3 - God's faithfulness
4 - God's covenant with His people
5 - Right with God through Christ
6 - Not walking in what we are dead to, sin
7 - Sin nature vs. Christ's nature
8 - Walking in Christ's nature
9-11 - God's plan for the Jews
12-16 - Christian living
When I thought about starting a discussion about Romans 7 I wanted to discuss what we still struggle with and how we have overcome them or want to. It is easy to not to do those 'big' sins but the heart issues is what I wanted to discuss. I.E. Pride, lust, complaining. I think Romans 7 does let us know that there is always that flesh nature that we have but Romans 8 lets us know we don't have to follow it but by God's Spirit we can live out Christ's nature that was giving to us at our New Birth.
One day, at church during worship, I was confronted with my sin. Or to me it seemed. The Lord gave me Romans 12:1-2 and Heb 4:16. Daily I am to present myself as a living sacrifice and I can always go to Him for strength to overcome anything.
Elise
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 3:51:55 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
OK, but on what is the standard I am permitted to use in making this evaluation. Though I am willing to have my life evaluated. I would be reluctant to bet my life on receiving a perfect score. That's really up to you, Bluethread, since you're the one claiming that everybody has the "propensity to sin". You and I have an entirely different definition of "perfection", as we have discussed before. I willingly "bet my life" on the perfection of Christ's Love filling my heart every day. Indeed, His perfect love is the only reason we can live victoriously over sin.
So it all boils down to what God has done in my life and the lives of those sanctified Believers with whom I interact regularly. I do not "struggle with sin" when I crucify the sinful nature and allow the Holy Spirit to control my thoughts and actions. When I insist on my ability to choose, I will (sooner than later) resume a life of struggle.
First you say it is up to me. Then you say we have different definitions. How can we test your theory, if we do not agree on the premise on which it is based. That would be "be perfect as I am perfect." So, if perfection is a matter of "Christ's Love filling my heart " how does one determine that? Also, when you say, struggle comes from insisting on "my ability to choose". How does one make decisions?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 3:54:41 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3055
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
I think Romans 7 does let us know that there is always that flesh nature that we have but Romans 8 lets us know we don't have to follow it but by God's Spirit we can live out Christ's nature that was giving to us at our New Birth. Elise, is the "flesh nature" the same thing as the "sinful nature" in your understanding of Scripture? How do you interpret language in the following passages that command death for sin:
Romans 6:6 - For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.
Romans 8:13 - If by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Galatians 2:20 - I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
Galatians 5:24 - Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
Galatians 6:14 - May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Colossians 3:5 - Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 4:02:20 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3055
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
How can we test your theory, if we do not agree on the premise on which it is based. I'm not here to test theories, Bluethread. You're more than welcome to use the search feature and review our past discussions of Christian perfection.
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So, if perfection is a matter of "Christ's Love filling my heart " how does one determine that? I don't determine anything. I appropriate and live out the sanctifying grace God freely gives me every day.
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Also, when you say, struggle comes from insisting on "my ability to choose". How does one make decisions? Is this a neuropsychiatric question? I make my decisions in, through, and with Christ's Love. How do you make decisions?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 4:13:18 PM
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twincities
Posts: 95
Joined: 10/15/2007
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I don't think we need to split hairs here.. I have sinned since I have known the Lord and there are things in life that I still struggle with. I don't always struggle with them though. When I am not walking in Christ's nature but in my own.
Ro:12:1: I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
1Jo:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
I quess I wanted to discuss about fully walking in Christ's nature and not our own.
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 4:37:04 PM
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chasbeck1
Posts: 26
Joined: 11/18/2008
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As I stated in my first response, whatever nature we feed the most is the
one that will dominate our life. We have that sin nature that always pulls
at our flesh to do the things that are contrary to the spirit of Christ that is
in us. Daily we have to make the choice of whom we will serve. In John 14:16, Jesus says that He will send another helper to abide with us forever, (The Holy Spirit) We have the Spirit of Christ living inside us, to
guide us into all the truth of the Word of God. By living daily in communion and fellowship with Christ, we can then begin to live a life of
overcoming that continuing pull of sin in our lives. It's only in Him, By Him, and through Him that we can be overcomers as He is an overcomer.
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 4:44:28 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3055
Joined: 7/10/2006
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I don't think we need to split hairs here.. Well, I can respect your position even though I strongly disagree with it. I believe there's a huge difference between the human physical nature we always have on earth and the sinful carnal nature that can be cleansed and crucified by God's grace and power. In my doctrinal understanding, one can never "fully walk in Christ's nature" until the flesh nature is gone! How would you explain "fully walking in Christ's nature" if we "always have that flesh nature"?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 4:45:45 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2504
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: twincities
I don't think we need to split hairs here.. I have sinned since I have known the Lord and there are things in life that I still struggle with. I don't always struggle with them though. When I am not walking in Christ's nature but in my own.
Ro:12:1: I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
1Jo:2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
I quess I wanted to discuss about fully walking in Christ's nature and not our own.
Ok you mentioned twice about the sins your struggling with, ....because we have an advacate with the Father.... what happens when you apply 1 John 2:1 to your situations?
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 4:53:25 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3055
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
We have that sin nature that always pulls at our flesh to do the things that are contrary to the spirit of Christ that is in us. That is the condition of the Romans chapter 7 Christian, chasbeck1. I am alive in the Spirit, living in accordance with the Spirit, and controlled by the Spirit, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. That is living without the sin nature in Romans chapter 8!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 8:38:58 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
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How can we test your theory, if we do not agree on the premise on which it is based. I'm not here to test theories, Bluethread. You're more than welcome to use the search feature and review our past discussions of Christian perfection.
If you don't wish explain what Paul says in light of your view point. This fine. However, without Scriptural and/or rational justification it is difficult to accept your posistion.
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So, if perfection is a matter of "Christ's Love filling my heart " how does one determine that? I don't determine anything. I appropriate and live out the sanctifying grace God freely gives me every day.
In your opinion, how can one be sure they are living out the sanctifying grace of Adonai?
quote:
Also, when you say, struggle comes from insisting on "my ability to choose". How does one make decisions? Is this a neuropsychiatric question? I make my decisions in, through, and with Christ's Love. How do you make decisions?
I study Adonai's Word in its historical and grammatical context, discuss it with others, apply the reason Adonai gave me and ask Adonai to guide me through that process to a proper course of action. In other words, I wrestle with Adonai and refuse to let go until He blesses me.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: romans 7 - 11/18/2008 9:15:27 PM
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chasbeck1
Posts: 26
Joined: 11/18/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
How can we test your theory, if we do not agree on the premise on which it is based. I'm not here to test theories, Bluethread. You're more than welcome to use the search feature and review our past discussions of Christian perfection.
If you don't wish explain what Paul says in light of your view point. This fine. However, without Scriptural and/or rational justification it is difficult to accept your posistion.
quote:
So, if perfection is a matter of "Christ's Love filling my heart " how does one determine that? I don't determine anything. I appropriate and live out the sanctifying grace God freely gives me every day.
In your opinion, how can one be sure they are living out the sanctifying grace of Adonai?
quote:
Also, when you say, struggle comes from insisting on "my ability to choose". How does one make decisions? Is this a neuropsychiatric question? I make my decisions in, through, and with Christ's Love. How do you make decisions?
I study Adonai's Word in its historical and grammatical context, discuss it with others, apply the reason Adonai gave me and ask Adonai to guide me through that process to a proper course of action. In other words, I wrestle with Adonai and refuse to let go until He blesses me.
I would perceive that you are trying to achive perfection through human
effort. That is the very reason that Christ died for us. No amount of human effort, can overcome the power of sin. It is only through recieving
the perfect love of Christ in our hearts that we can begin to overcome.
The apostle Paul states in Philipians, 3:12-13 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected, but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Don't get caught up in
a sin consciousness. What I mean is, don't be so overly concerned with whether your sinning or not, but allow the grace and forgivness of God to
have effect in your life. The Word of God shows us how we should live our
lives on a daily basis. If we do fall short of t | | |
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