RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to take communion.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/24/2008 6:56:43 PM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
I must say I agree with you. Something I find really funny about the abortion debate is that the ones who are most staunchly against it are men. The very people who will never, ever get pregnant seem to have the most to say on the topic.
That is a lovely opinion. Now prove it. I recommend NOT starting by looking at the presidents and founders of pro-life organizations, because when you find women there it might pop the fragile bubble you live in! Oh, and you had better stay away from looking into conservative talk radio and bloggers, because you might run across Laura Ingraham or Michelle Malkin. Oh, and you had better stay away from pro-life politicians, because you might run into people like *gasp* Sarah Palin. I think you get my point.
You know what I find really (not) funny? Women who think that men have no right to speak up for unborn life.
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I don't understand why all this time and energy is spent on debating and condemning women instead of coming up with a way to safely remove the unborn from the womb so it can develop somewhere else. Et voila. No more abortion.
That would be lovely. In the mean time, hows about making murdering the tiny tikes illegal?
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/24/2008 9:54:11 PM
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Acts29
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Back to the OP
Seriously will they (people who voted for Obama) ever be allowed to receive communion again or have any chance of forgiveness? Will they be excommunicated?
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 1:46:57 AM
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womaninchrist
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I never said I was "FOR" abortion. Quite the contrary. I am not "FOR" abortion at all. The thing is, neither am I "for" adding a layer of man's law's to God's law's where such a law may cause many of the mothers to loose their chance at surviving to be lead to repentance. Nor am I "for" allowing man's law to have a say about a woman's reproductive system when there is talk afoot from the extremes about forced eugenics. Finally, I absolutely DO NOT see where an individual's failure to push for laws banning abortion and to vote ONLY for anti-abortion candidates makes them "responsible" for all abortions in any way. Whether we have that added man's law, God's law still applies and the pregnant woman and anyone providing her with the abortion or abortive meds are the ones responsible to God. THEY are the ones murdering the developing child.
By the logic being used to make me responsible for all abortions just because I voted for Obama, I'm also responsible for my own rape back in college because I didn't push to ban pocket knives on college campuses and/or to require panic alarms in dorm rooms. Or I'm responsible for someone's murder because I didn't vote for someone who would support a gun ban. At some point, we must admit that the individual sinner is the one responsible for their sin - not the society around them. Since after all, it is the INDIVIDUAL who is making the choice to sin, not the society and laws only stop those willing to elect to obey them...
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 4:44:34 AM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Acts29
Back to the OP
Seriously will they (people who voted for Obama) ever be allowed to receive communion again or have any chance of forgiveness? Will they be excommunicated?
They will not be excommunicated, if you read the OP it specifcally says that the priest only asks that they not partake until they have pursued reconciliation. He is asking that they seek forgiveness for what is in the Catholic church a sin prior to participating in the Lord's supper.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 8:46:14 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5149
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Denying someone communion is not denying them eternal life. Walking in unrepentance...now that might mess with your eternal life. In this instance the priest is not telling them they may never partake in communion again, only that they need to repent first.
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Bonky
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 9:05:16 AM
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P31W
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quote:
They will not be excommunicated, if you read the OP it specifcally says that the priest only asks that they not partake until they have pursued reconciliation. He is asking that they seek forgiveness for what is in the Catholic church a sin prior to participating in the Lord's supper.
quote:
Denying someone communion is not denying them eternal life. Walking in unrepentance...now that might mess with your eternal life. In this instance the priest is not telling them they may never partake in communion again, only that they need to repent first.
For me this makes perfect sense if I understand the catholic theology any. ROFL
For them communion is a "means of grace".
How can the Priest offer to an unrepentant person a "means of grace".
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 9:22:32 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I would think denying communion would be the greater crime since you're messing with one's eternal life while the other only messes with a physical life that's going to pass away anyway. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Sounds pretty good to me.
Don't use scripture to "justify" murder. That's a clear twist of God's word. It's not funny, cute or wise. It sounds as if you are mocking God.
I think most of us don't want to participate in a discussion with someone who mocks God. We don't want to go there with you.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 9:53:03 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Whether we have that added man's law, God's law still applies and the pregnant woman and anyone providing her with the abortion or abortive meds are the ones responsible to God. THEY are the ones murdering the developing child.
God tells us that if the innocent is being murdered and we know about it then it's "our responsibility" to try to the best of our ability to prevent it from occruing.
God even tells us not to try to pretend we didn't know about it because HE KNOWS that WE KNOW.
Because you and I know that it's legal in this coutry to muder the innocent child then God is going to hold us responsible for what we did not to to prevent that from occruing.
So it is our responsbility and we are in sin if we fail to obey God's command to try to prevent those murders.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 1:55:47 PM
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writerchick
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Denying someone communion is not denying them eternal life. Walking in unrepentance...now that might mess with your eternal life. In this instance the priest is not telling them they may never partake in communion again, only that they need to repent first.
Maybe I missed it. Where exactly can I find in the Bible, "Thou shalt not vote for Obama?" Unless that's in there, I don't see how these voters can even remotely be considered to be unrepentant.
Also, I didn't say that communion gives you salvation. But it is a symbol that you believe in Jesus and His work on the cross. Voting in an election should not be enough to nullify that.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 2:40:44 PM
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Consecrated2God
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You don't need a verse that says "do not vote for Obama". There are plenty of verses that speak against those that shed innocent blood and those that support it.
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Bonky
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 4:15:42 PM
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LabGuy
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I think that with Christians who say they believe abortion is wrong but don't want it outlawed because other people believe differently, we're seeing just how influential the pluralistic mindset of the world really is. "Belief" has been demoted to the level of mere opinion.
If you truly believe something, it is a fact to you. It's a truth claim. It doesn't matter if other people believe differently - they're wrong as far as you're concerned. (Doesn't mean you're perfect - it is obviously possible to believe incorrectly. But you require compelling reasons to change your belief. Unless/until that happens, your belief is the truth in your eyes.)
As an example, I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died to pay the penalty for my sins. That is a fact as far as I'm concerned. As much a fact as gravity. Thus, anyone who denies Jesus is just wrong, end of discussion.
Now the world says everybody has different beliefs, so we should respect them all because they're all equally valid. This is utter hogwash. This view of necessity relegates belief to simple opinion, and/or denies truth, because so many belief systems are diametrically opposed. Islam, for example, denies that Jesus is God's son. Logically, Islam and Christianity both cannot be true. But if they both are mere opinions and not truth claims (beliefs), then there's not a problem; everybody's entitled to their opinion.
(Further, why "respect" other beliefs? If you truly believe some truth claim, other claims that conflict with it are patently false. What you respect is people. You don't disparage or ridicule those with different beliefs, rather you try to give them the compelling reasons to change. For example, evangelism is not about winning an argument, but rather partnering with the Holy Spirit to help someone see the truth about Jesus. You cannot force someone to believe.)
As to how this applies to abortion, if in one breath someone says they believe abortion is wrong and the next they say it's ok that it's legal because others believe differently, I submit that they really don't "believe" that it is wrong - it's only an opinion, one they feel is no more valid than anyone else's. Were it an actual "belief", it would be a truth claim. And regardless of what others thought, that truth claim says that babies are being murdered. In that case, to argue that it should be legal because some people don't see it as murder is tantamount to saying that any murder should be legal, because some killers don't think they're doing anything wrong. (The only difference between the two scenarios is that one takes place in the womb and the other outside of it.)
Admittedly this strays from the topic of the OP a little, but rather than re-hash the same arguments for the 100th time, I thought I would add some new perspective to the discussion. In closing, allow me to leave you with one final thought on beliefs versus opinions. Some may die for their beliefs; opinions tend to be discarded when the going gets tough.
-Robb
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 4:24:37 PM
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writerchick
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
I would think denying communion would be the greater crime since you're messing with one's eternal life while the other only messes with a physical life that's going to pass away anyway. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Sounds pretty good to me.
Don't use scripture to "justify" murder. That's a clear twist of God's word. It's not funny, cute or wise. It sounds as if you are mocking God.
I think most of us don't want to participate in a discussion with someone who mocks God. We don't want to go there with you.
First of all, I'm not mocking God. I am, however, wondering why we, as Christians, seem to fear death so much since Jesus already proved that it is no match for Him. At the center of this whole debate is two things God told us not to worry about.
1)Death
2) Fear
Jesus conquered the first and the spirit of the second did not come from God. And yet, these two things seem to have such a large presence in our minds. Why is that?
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 4:34:45 PM
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writerchick
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
You don't need a verse that says "do not vote for Obama". There are plenty of verses that speak against those that shed innocent blood and those that support it.
And yet people weren't denied communion for voting for Bush/Cheney in round two. Even if you don't believe the war was wrong and all those civilians simply had it coming, Cheney shot a guy while hunting. Isn't this also the shed of innocent blood? And what about all those prisoners being tortured in Gitmo without a trial to prove their wrongdoing? What's fair for the goose needs to be fair for the gander.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 5:00:21 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
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quote:
And yet people weren't denied communion for voting for Bush/Cheney in round two. Even if you don't believe the war was wrong and all those civilians simply had it coming, Cheney shot a guy while hunting. Isn't this also the shed of innocent blood? And what about all those prisoners being tortured in Gitmo without a trial to prove their wrongdoing? What's fair for the goose needs to be fair for the gander.
There are plenty of churches that are just fine and comfortable with situational morality and all about freedom to deal with inconveniences such as unborn children. Those within the Catholic church that don't like the church's stance should opt out of it, and into one that won't be so judgmental on sin. I left mine. I left a denomination well on it's way to giving the ok to not only abortion, but gay clergy.
I'm positive they'd welcome ex-Catholics with open arms. They won't have the hassle of dealing with Biblical standards, anyone and everyone is welcome at Communion, and the money they put in the plate will go towards a whole slew of liberal causes, such as saving the environment, boosting the UN, lobbying for more government spending, and condemnations of Israel, a total win-win solution for the liberal Christian.
_____________________________
Give a hoot, eat yer Lute, Der's no risk in Lutefisk.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 6:08:40 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5149
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quote:
I am, however, wondering why we, as Christians, seem to fear death so much since Jesus already proved that it is no match for Him.
I don't fear death. I do fear the consequences for a nation that has endorsed murder.
quote:
Even if you don't believe the war was wrong and all those civilians simply had it coming, Cheney shot a guy while hunting. Isn't this also the shed of innocent blood?
Are you talking about the hunting accident? They guy didn't even die, for one thing, but that's a ridiculous comparison. Obama supports legalized murder and people knew that and chose to vote for him anyway. That's what this priest (and I agree with him) says is wrong. How can you even compare voting for a guy who two years after the election would accidentally hit someone while hunting?
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Bonky
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 7:09:16 PM
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writerchick
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
I am, however, wondering why we, as Christians, seem to fear death so much since Jesus already proved that it is no match for Him.
I don't fear death. I do fear the consequences for a nation that has endorsed murder.
Voting for Obama does not mean that you've endorsed murder. You will still go to prison if you kill someone with malice aforethought. The very rhetoric of that sentence is designed to incite fear. It also proves my point quite nicely.
quote:
Even if you don't believe the war was wrong and all those civilians simply had it coming, Cheney shot a guy while hunting. Isn't this also the shed of innocent blood?
Are you talking about the hunting accident? They guy didn't even die, for one thing, but that's a ridiculous comparison. Obama supports legalized murder and people knew that and chose to vote for him anyway. That's what this priest (and I agree with him) says is wrong. How can you even compare voting for a guy who two years after the election would accidentally hit someone while hunting?
Why is it such a ridiculous comparison? The scripture cited said do not shed innocent blood. Whether the guy died or not, his blood was shed and there's been no proof he was guilty of anything.
Even if you want to dismiss this as an accident, routinely torturing prisoners when they haven't had a trial is nowhere near accidental.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 8:14:44 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
I am, however, wondering why we, as Christians, seem to fear death so much since Jesus already proved that it is no match for Him.
I don't fear death. I do fear the consequences for a nation that has endorsed murder.
The very rhetoric of that sentence is designed to incite fear. It also proves my point quite nicely.
Greetings
IMHO... you have no point.
quote:
Even if you want to dismiss this as an accident, routinely torturing prisoners when they haven't had a trial is nowhere near accidental.
SO then its ok once they have a trial?
Truthfully in the OT they would have been killed on the spot
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 8:21:51 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Denying someone communion is not denying them eternal life. Walking in un-repentance...now that might mess with your eternal life. In this instance the priest is not telling them they may never partake in communion again, only that they need to repent first.
That's a little more lenient then what Paul suggested and the prophecy suggests
1Co 5:5 - Show Context
Deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/25/2008 11:12:08 PM
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iampiper13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
Why is it such a ridiculous comparison? The scripture cited said do not shed innocent blood. Whether the guy died or not, his blood was shed and there's been no proof he was guilty of anything.
Even if you want to dismiss this as an accident, routinely torturing prisoners when they haven't had a trial is nowhere near accidental.
The OT covers accidental death too. so although Cheneys hunting accident didnt result in death it would have been considered an accident.
Deuteronomy 19:3-6 You shall prepare you a way, and divide the borders of your land which Jehovah your God gives you to inherit, into three parts, so that every slayer may flee there. (4) And this is the case of the slayer who shall flee there that he may live: whoever in error kills his neighbor whom he did not hate him before, (5) even he who goes into the wood with his neighbor to cut wood, and his hand brings a stroke with the axe to cut down the tree, and the head slips from the wood and lights on his neighbor so that he dies; he shall flee to one of those cities and live, (6) so that the avenger of the blood may not pursue the slayer while his heart is hot, and overtake him because the way is long, and kill him, and he had no sentence worthy of death, for he did not hate him in time past.
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God Bless
Steve
Psalms 138:3 CEV When I asked for your help, you answered my prayer and gave me courage.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/26/2008 12:34:56 AM
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HighPlainsDrifter
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Wow...an argument suggesting a moral equivalence between aborting a baby and a hunting accident, I've seen it all now.
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Give a hoot, eat yer Lute, Der's no risk in Lutefisk.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/26/2008 2:37:27 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
I must say I agree with you. Something I find really funny about the abortion debate is that the ones who are most staunchly against it are men. The very people who will never, ever get pregnant seem to have the most to say on the topic.
Sadly there is nothing funny about abortion, even the debate...
quote:
I don't understand why all this time and energy is spent on debating and condemning women instead of coming up with a way to safely remove the unborn from the womb so it can develop somewhere else. Et voila. No more abortion.
The people who seek to murder the unborn condemn themselves...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/26/2008 2:40:27 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
I would think denying communion would be the greater crime since you're messing with one's eternal life while the other only messes with a physical life that's going to pass away anyway. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Sounds pretty good to me.
Death doesn't equate to salvation...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/26/2008 2:50:58 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: womaninchrist
I never said I was "FOR" abortion. Quite the contrary. I am not "FOR" abortion at all. The thing is, neither am I "for" adding a layer of man's law's to God's law's where such a law may cause many of the mothers to loose their chance at surviving to be lead to repentance.
Women killing themselves in the attempt to murder the child is justice...
quote:
Finally, I absolutely DO NOT see where an individual's failure to push for laws banning abortion and to vote ONLY for anti-abortion candidates makes them "responsible" for all abortions in any way.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
quote:
Whether we have that added man's law, God's law still applies and the pregnant woman and anyone providing her with the abortion or abortive meds are the ones responsible to God. THEY are the ones murdering the developing child.
God's "law" says....
Proverbs 16:12 It is an abomination to kings to commit wickedness: for the throne is established by righteousness.
Therefore anyone supporting kings to commit wickedness is sinful...
Those in authority are guilty as well...
Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
The government is charged with dealing with those who do evil, not sanctioning it...
quote:
By the logic being used to make me responsible for all abortions just because I voted for Obama, I'm also responsible for my own rape back in college because I didn't push to ban pocket knives on college campuses and/or to require panic alarms in dorm rooms. Or I'm responsible for someone's murder because I didn't vote for someone who would support a gun ban.
Where is the "logic" in your weak analogies?
quote:
At some point, we must admit that the individual sinner is the one responsible for their sin - not the society around them. Since after all, it is the INDIVIDUAL who is making the choice to sin, not the society and laws only stop those willing to elect to obey them...
To admit the above would be to deny God's word... Those in authority are responsible as well... Therefore those who support those in authority to act in an unjust manner are responsible to...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/26/2008 2:56:06 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
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quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
Maybe I missed it. Where exactly can I find in the Bible, "Thou shalt not vote for Obama?" Unless that's in there, I don't see how these voters can even remotely be considered to be unrepentant.
They are unrepentant because they lent direct support to evil agendas given whom they voted for with forethought...
quote:
Also, I didn't say that communion gives you salvation. But it is a symbol that you believe in Jesus and His work on the cross. Voting in an election should not be enough to nullify that.
And it's a symbol one is in union with Jesus and His commands to love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself, and yes voting for someone who champions the cause to murder the unborn conflicts those commands...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Priest, asking those who voted for Obama not to tak... - 11/26/2008 2:59:43 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: writerchick
First of all, I'm not mocking God. I am, however, wondering why we, as Christians, seem to fear death so much since Jesus already proved that it is no match for Him. At the center of this whole debate is two things God told us not to worry about.
1)Death
2) Fear
Jesus conquered the first and the spirit of the second did not come from God. And yet, these two things seem to have such a large presence in our minds. Why is that?
It's not death, but injustice... The subject of abortion deals with murder, not simply death... And the fear you should consider is the lack thereof of people who believe it's ok to murder and worse yet, God is ok with it... The lack of fear regarding God is blatant regarding abortion and very telling...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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