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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 6/29/2010 10:16:21 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
What got Christianity through those first centuries without an official Creed or Canon? What was there but the Holy Spirit working through a succession of bishops? Indeed the bishops gave us both the Creed and the NT within a generation of getting the opportunity to come together in council.
quote:
eed or Canon? What was there but the Holy Spirit working through a succession of bishops
Yes. It is true that the early Church universally taught Apostolic Succession.
I'm not aware of any Church father that denied this idea. Of course, Apostolic Succession does not mean that the Bishops can lay down new doctrines. But they can help the Church to discern what was given during times of crises or need for clarification, as they did in the 300s in response to Arianism
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/11/2010 11:01:44 PM
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patricius79
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AMERICAN JOSIAH WROTE:
quote:
Several points....
1. The communion that God created/creates is His Body, the communion of saints that is one, holy and catholic. It has nothing to do with denominations (RCC, LDS or any other - claims of self alone for self alone not withstanding).
The Bible doesn't even refer to "denomination", nor say that the historic Church is one
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/11/2010 11:25:22 PM
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WilliamFloyd
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But it does have some things to say about sects, of which the Roman Catholic Church is one.
_____________________________
And he shall bring back the understanding of the forefathers to their descendants, and thoughts of the descendants to their forefathers so that I won't come and smite the land with a curse.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/13/2010 1:38:30 PM
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patricius79
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WilliamFloyd
But it does have some things to say about sects, of which the Roman Catholic Church is one.
Neither the Bible nor Church history say this.
Gal 5:19-21 (roughly) talks about how un-spiritual people fall into factions.
Well, that what happened immediately with Calvin and Luther et al. as they broke away from the Biblical Church and Apostolic Succession
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/15/2010 12:01:07 AM
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WilliamFloyd
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From: Harrison Twp., Michigan
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An argument can be made that that's what happened upon the formal declaration/formation of the faction under Constantine.
_____________________________
And he shall bring back the understanding of the forefathers to their descendants, and thoughts of the descendants to their forefathers so that I won't come and smite the land with a curse.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/15/2010 8:37:56 AM
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patricius79
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WilliamFloyd
An argument can be made that that's what happened upon the formal declaration/formation of the faction under Constantine.
Well, since in the 100s and 200s and in the first century we have testimony only to the Papist belief system, this argument from Constantine--though very popular--doesn't hold up.
And there is no other constant Trinitarian Tradition in the first millenium, when no single person testifies to the protestant belief system/s.
E.g. the Trinitarian fathers in the 100s testify to the Catholic interpreation of the N.T. and to the Catholic principles, such as Succession.
http://www.catholic.com/library/fathers_know_best.asp
That's why I believe in Apostolic Succession (2 Tim 2:2), and that the Catholic Church is the Biblical Church into which all are baptized (all the fathers in Scripture, in the 100s, 200s, etc taught baptismal rebirth.
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 7/15/2010 8:46:05 AM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/15/2010 3:54:04 PM
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Heavendweller
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I am an Orthodox Christian, having been received into the Church on Lazarus Saturday of this year. However, as I read through the copious comments here, I question the effectiveness of how such strident debate will draw anyone toward Orthodoxy.
An inherent respect for the 'other' tends to be lacking for the most part. I think that discussing our faith in a context that such discourse engenders irenicses is well worth investing our time. However, what I witness here is quite the opposite, sadly.
I will now point those readers who are interested in learning further about Orthodoxy to take a look over at Father Stephen's blog, "Glory to God For All Things." He is a "convert" (really don't care for that word very much  ) to Orthodoxy from Protestantism. He stresses how we (esp. Orthodox Christians) are called to live the life of Christ by being partakers of His divine nature. Many of his topics also address rational knowing versus being in communion with and joined to Christ.
May God bless each one of us as we journey toward the Celestial City.
Lord Jesus, have mercy on me a sinner.
In Christ's Immeasurable Love,
Darlene
_____________________________
See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/15/2010 4:15:51 PM
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Heavendweller
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Also, another good source for learning about the Orthodox faith through practical teaching would be "All Saints Homilies" by Fr Patrick Reardon, which can be found at Ancient Faith Radio podcasts. He gives easy to understand instruction to his parish in applying Orthodox teaching to our everyday lives, but also addresses matters of false doctrine and wrong thinking. My husband who is a Protestant evangelical even finds him to be an encouragement in how one should think, believe, practice, and live out our lives as followers of Christ.
_____________________________
See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/15/2010 9:59:31 PM
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patricius79
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Hi HeavenDweller Darlene,
Since these doctrines--including Apostolic Succession--are matters of salvation and for some other reasons, these threads can become heated at times.
I think many are using them to work out their own issues and even perhaps learn to deal with their anger and questions about Scripture, ec.
I think that is find as long as it is done prayerfully, according to the rules of the forum and of God.
As to Apostolic Succession, we presumably have agreement excepting the issue of Papal Primacy. I would be open to such discussion if you are, but I would guess you would not prefer to discuss this.
If I'm wrong, let me know. I have a great deal of respect for EO and anticipate the day when all who have the Eucharist are fully one through these Holy Orders Peace,
pat
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/16/2010 12:54:17 AM
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PeterD
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Hello Heavendweller,
Good to see you back in this crosswalk community.
If I may ask what is the differance between Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox?
Hello patricius79,
Your words, quote:
"I have a great deal of respect for EO and anticipate the day when all who have the Eucharist are fully one through these Holy Orders Peace." Your words remind me of what us gentile Christians are in that we Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written,
"Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles,
and sing to your name."
Romans 15:9
Christ the Hope of Jews and Gentiles
9and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written,
"Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles,
and sing to your name."
Peter
< Message edited by PeterD -- 7/16/2010 1:16:46 AM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/16/2010 5:38:34 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Hello Heavendweller,
Good to see you back in this crosswalk community.
If I may ask what is the difference between Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox?
Hello Peter!
There really is no difference as far as the faith is concerned. Just that they are under different jurisdictions. For example, recently I attended Divine Liturgy in a Greek Orthodox Church. Some of the liturgy was chanted in English and some in Greek. However, the Scriptures read for the day were the same as my parish and I knew the order of worship because it was basically the same as in my parish. The only differences may be cultural practices. For example, in my parish there is a table with wine and blessed bread that all members partake of immediately after communing in the Chalice. It is at this time that the Orthodox offer blessed bread to non-Orthodox visiting with us. However, in the Greek parish, the priest handed out the blessed bread during the veneration of the cross.
So as far as the doctrines and teachings are concerned, they are the same in all Orthodox churches. Also, in each particular parish some of the service may be chanted in two different languages depending upon where that church originally emigrated from. For example, many Romanian Orthodox churches use both Romanian and English during worship, in the ROCOR parishes many use both English and Russian during the worship. And then there are many parishes that chant the Divine Liturgy in English only. Actually I attended a Pascha service this year in which the service was chanted in three different languages, Russian, English, and Greek! And those attending were from many different ethnic backgrounds, but we could all follow along in the worship because we were using the liturgy of St. John Chrysostum which all Orthodox parishes use. (although at certain times of the year we use the liturgy of St. Basil)
I hope my answer was helpful.
Darlene
_____________________________
See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/16/2010 4:50:27 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 3420
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quote:
Hello patricius79,
Your words, quote:
"I have a great deal of respect for EO and anticipate the day when all who have the Eucharist are fully one through these Holy Orders Peace." Your words remind me of what us gentile Christians are in that we Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written,
"Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles,
and sing to your name."
Romans 15:9
Christ the Hope of Jews and Gentiles
9and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written,
"Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles,
and sing to your name."
Peter
Hi Peter,
His laws have become our universal song.
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/16/2010 7:55:58 PM
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PeterD
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Hello walterquez, Dred, HeavenDweller Darlene and patricius79,
I've been reading and listening to Orthodox teaching and their thoughts on Ecumenism such as this one source found on youtube. If you have time to listen to it could someone please explain these Canons of the Holy Apostles and what it means today, meaning I'm thinking is this what The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession is still about even today, no Ecumenism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-RdNeKlFs8&feature=PlayList&p=42F8BEE672D84E97&playnext_from=PL&index=30&playnext=2
Peter
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/17/2010 2:54:30 AM
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gralan
Posts: 499
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
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This thread still causes me pain when I come and read the posts for what they are saying.
Peter, my own exploration into the possibility of going Orthodox led me to understand that there is no union between God's church and those who reject God's church.
I'll be following up to read answers to your questions and the implication of no ecumenicalism. I have a feeling it is basically like asking Christians to accept Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses as spiritual family where pastors can switch churches and every one is on the same page.
It cannot happen, even if formally it is accomplished by agreements. It just doesn't work.
To proclaim one is the only true church means by definition those who are not in agreement with you are not part of the true church.
God's covenant with us in Christ is to have a people for his own possession. Those who are not with us, it is written, departed from us because they were not one of us.
I've not found an open door to Orthodoxy that doesn't require rebaptism, joining the true church, and repudiation of the former life including former affiliations with the false churches.
Perhaps I'll be surprised here by those who know.
-suffering servant,
gregory alan
aka gralan
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/17/2010 1:51:25 PM
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Dred
Posts: 282
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From: Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Hello walterquez, Dred, HeavenDweller Darlene and patricius79,
I've been reading and listening to Orthodox teaching and their thoughts on Ecumenism such as this one source found on youtube. If you have time to listen to it could someone please explain these Canons of the Holy Apostles and what it means today, meaning I'm thinking is this what The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession is still about even today, no Ecumenism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-RdNeKlFs8&feature=PlayList&p=42F8BEE672D84E97&playnext_from=PL&index=30&playnext=2
Peter
To be brief, the internet in general and Youtube in particular are not at all reliable places to learn about Orthodoxy. If you must use the internet, consider your sources. For example, the great majority of the Orthodox churches you'll encounter in the USA are a part of the jurisdictions Greek Orthodox Archdiocese (www.goarch.org) or the Orthodox Church in America (www.oca.org). A quick look on the topic of ecumenical issues can get you the following pages:
goarch
OCA
Heavendweller mentioned some nice internet sources which are popular among the Orthodox in America. A book considered by most to be a definitive work so far as introducing Orthodoxy to English speaking people is "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Kallistos Ware.
However, it is not common for the Orthodox to spend time discussing other churches, but rather in simply demonstrating Orthodoxy and teaching the Orthodox faith.
The video you referenced exists because someone is unhappy that the Orthodox Church is far too 'ecumenical' for their taste. Automatically, that implies that the feelings expressed in the video are not representative of the great majority of the Orthodox world. There are even some very small groups of Orthodox who have become so unhappy about such matters that they have broken communion with the rest of us. I don't know if that is the case here; I have never heard of any of the leaders mentioned in the video.
_____________________________
"He was born among us for the cure of the disease of sin." --Gregory of Nyssa
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/17/2010 2:38:42 PM
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Dred
Posts: 282
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
This thread still causes me pain when I come and read the posts for what they are saying.
Just be careful not to also read them for what they do not say. I know that some have been more upset by the silence of the Orthodox here than by anything actually said. The Orthodox have a way of being silent and are often accused of being vague as well. I'll be silent about the reasons for this, but there are reasons.
quote:
Peter, my own exploration into the possibility of going Orthodox led me to understand that there is no union between God's church and those who reject God's church.
I'll be following up to read answers to your questions and the implication of no ecumenicalism. I have a feeling it is basically like asking Christians to accept Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses as spiritual family where pastors can switch churches and every one is on the same page.
It cannot happen, even if formally it is accomplished by agreements. It just doesn't work.
To proclaim one is the only true church means by definition those who are not in agreement with you are not part of the true church.
God's covenant with us in Christ is to have a people for his own possession. Those who are not with us, it is written, departed from us because they were not one of us.
I've not found an open door to Orthodoxy that doesn't require rebaptism, joining the true church, and repudiation of the former life including former affiliations with the false churches.
The 'repudiation' mentioned is not well defined, so it is hard to know what you mean. Most of the Orthodox I know were formerly Protestant or Catholic. I have not encountered anyone who despises their former churches. Though they recognize that something was lacking there, they are generally grateful for the good that was there. The Orthodox way is concerned very much with being positive and not judging others. It is true we don't see the Orthodox church as just one church of many, but we see it as the fullness of the Christian faith. This doesn't mean we look at other churches as anti-churches; there is some measure of goodness and truth there--we even would say the same for the non-Christian religions though it is of smaller measure. We don't formally define the position of those outside the Orthodox Church. God alone knows that, but we pray for the salvation of all and we know that God is good and loves mankind.
I'm not sure what you meant by "repudiation," but "rebaptism" is, in contrast, a very well defined term, so I can speak with more clarity there. First of all, your comment made me wonder where you've been looking for this "open door to Orthodoxy" you mentioned. If you are in the USA, the great majority of the Orthodox you'll encounter are a part of OCA or Goarch. I would think you'd want to take a quick look at what they have to say. Doing so just a few minutes ago with the lousy but convenient internet I found the following very quickly:
"Concerning Baptism: The general practice throughout the OCA parishes is that an individual baptized according to the traditional Trinitarian formula, i.e., "In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit," is not received into the Church through Baptism but, rather, through the Sacraments of Chrismation, Penance, and the Eucharist, together with a statement of faith."
OCA
"The Baptism of adults is practiced when there was no previous baptism in the name of the Holy Trinity."
Goarch
quote:
Perhaps I'll be surprised here by those who know.
I hope I've at least been more than useless to you. 
_____________________________
"He was born among us for the cure of the disease of sin." --Gregory of Nyssa
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/17/2010 6:07:05 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 430
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Hello walterquez, Dred, HeavenDweller Darlene and patricius79,
I've been reading and listening to Orthodox teaching and their thoughts on Ecumenism such as this one source found on youtube. If you have time to listen to it could someone please explain these Canons of the Holy Apostles and what it means today, meaning I'm thinking is this what The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession is still about even today, no Ecumenism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-RdNeKlFs8&feature=PlayList&p=42F8BEE672D84E97&playnext_from=PL&index=30&playnext=2
Peter
Peter,
First, I want to thank you for the amicable manner in which you want to dialogue. That is rare indeed on the Internet these days.
Dred has given some helpful answers. I would also like to point you to Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick's blog, "Roads from Emmaus" under a post titled, "Scripture and Tradition." A lady responds to his post with a comment addressing this very topic of the "true Church." Father Andrew's answer, though not lengthy, is apt and a good springboard (so to speak), from where to begin.
I asked a question of the priest the first time I attended a Divine Liturgy. I asked him if he thought Protestants were saved (or something to that effect). He gave me a one-line answer, which often is unsatisfactory to many who are looking for a defintive proclamation. His answer, "We know where the Church is, we don't know where it isn't." In subsequent conversations and interactions since then that I have had with various Orthodox priests and laity, the belief is that the Holy Spirit is at work among those outside the Orthodox Church. I recall once having a conversation during coffee hour when one man wanted to somehow repudiate the idea that God is at work within those traditions outside of Holy Orthodoxy. My question to him, "How is it then that I was drawn to the Orthodox Church if Christ is not at work within the hearts and minds outside of His Church?" The parish priest came to my defense and the man's objection was put to rest.
However, Peter, there are many things that complicate this very discussion. One, I think, are the enormous amount of schisms that have occurred within Protestantism during the last two centuries especially. The Early Fathers declared schism to be heretical and outside the will of God. This was one of the reasons John Wesley never formally broke away from the Anglican Church. All this to say that various churches which have teachings and doctrines that vary, and in some cases outright contradict each other, yet all claim to be Christians, makes the notion of unity suspect in the eyes of many. One could rightfully ask, does the Holy Spirit contradict Himself? Of course, this is a rhetorical question.
As regards the video you posted, I can understand those particular priests' concerns. One thing that I think is worth mentioning here is the meaning of heretic. Heretics, according to the Orthodox defintion are those who have truly been transformed by the Holy Spirit and united to Christ and tasted of the Holy Mysteries and embraced the doctrines/teachings/practices of the Orthodox Church, only to reject the former and live in such a manner as to deny and disavow the Orthodox faith entirely, often doing so openly and without reservation.
I hope my answer has been of help to you, Peter. Forgive me, if in any way I have offended you. My intention was not to do so. May Christ our God bless you with His presence.
Darlene
_____________________________
See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/17/2010 6:26:09 PM
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PeterD
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I must say Heavendweller, this is the Day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it!!!
Deuteronomy 26:16-19
Offerings of Firstfruits and Tithes
16"This day the LORD your God commands you to do these statutes and rules. You shall therefore be careful to do them with all your heart and with all your soul. 17 You have declared today that the LORD is your God, and that you will walk in his ways, and keep his statutes and his commandments and his rules, and will obey his voice. 18And the LORD has declared today that you are a people for his treasured possession, as he has promised you, and that you are to keep all his commandments, 19and that he will set you in praise and in fame and in honor high above all nations that he has made, and that you shall be a people holy to the LORD your God, as he promised."
Luke 11:33-36
The Light in You
33 "No one after lighting a lamp puts it in a cellar or under a basket, but on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light. 34Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eye is healthy, your whole body is full of light, but when it is bad, your body is full of darkness. 35 Therefore be careful lest the light in you be darkness. 36If then your whole body is full of light, having no part dark, it will be wholly bright, as when a lamp with its rays gives you light."
Philippians 4:1-7
1Therefore, my brothers, whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm thus in the Lord, my beloved.
Exhortation, Encouragement, and Prayer
2I entreat Euodia and I entreat Syntyche to agree in the Lord. 3Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women, who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand; 6 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Peter
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/17/2010 6:39:31 PM
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PeterD
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Thank you Dred and Darlene for the information:
Greek Orthodox Archdiocese (www.goarch.org)
Orthodox Church in America (www.oca.org)
I own this book "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Kallistos Ware.
And both of your letters to me Heavendweller are full of encouragement, thank you both for shining the light of Christ in the Church.
Peter
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/18/2010 3:25:06 AM
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kelman
Posts: 6107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
Just be careful not to also read them for what they do not say. I know that some have been more upset by the silence of the Orthodox here than by anything actually said. The Orthodox have a way of being silent and are often accused of being vague as well. I'll be silent about the reasons for this, but there are reasons. Well, not all Orthodox are quite as "vague" as you suggest. It has been made very clear by one at least that Protestants are not Christians. Not sure what he considered Roman Catholics to be.
Perhaps the rest of EO's are reticent and vague because they believe the same?
_____________________________
.... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/18/2010 7:58:30 AM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
Just be careful not to also read them for what they do not say. I know that some have been more upset by the silence of the Orthodox here than by anything actually said. The Orthodox have a way of being silent and are often accused of being vague as well. I'll be silent about the reasons for this, but there are reasons. Well, not all Orthodox are quite as "vague" as you suggest. It has been made very clear by one at least that Protestants are not Christians. Not sure what he considered Roman Catholics to be.
Perhaps the rest of EO's are reticent and vague because they believe the same?
Dear Kelman,
I think it is best to consider what the Church herself has to say about this. Granted, there are persons that can misrepresent or misunderstand the Orthodox position on this, although it may not be intentional on their part. Afterall, there are those who unintentionally (perhaps not intentionally) mislead others as to the Calvinist/Reformed position on a particular doctrine. It may be because the person is not formed in their faith yet, or they may have slightly different views on a teaching. (i.e. infralapsarianism v.s. supralapsarianism for example)
I do think that whenever we discuss our faith with non-Orthodox, we should seek to be irenic and respectale toward our neighbor, who is made in the imagine of God. We are sinners, and therefore err in this regard on many occasions. Scripture instructs us to strive for peace with all men, and to let our speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that we may know how we ought to answer every one. It is never upbuilding to argue or debate just for the sake of doing so. I think we have to have the gift of "listening" to those with whom we may disagree or misunderstand. But senseless banter and debate seldom engenders fruitful dialogue.
May the blessings of Christ be with you this day.
Darlene
Lord Jesus, be merciful to me, a sinner!
_____________________________
See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/18/2010 7:16:35 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 931
Joined: 4/27/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
Just be careful not to also read them for what they do not say. I know that some have been more upset by the silence of the Orthodox here than by anything actually said. The Orthodox have a way of being silent and are often accused of being vague as well. I'll be silent about the reasons for this, but there are reasons. Well, not all Orthodox are quite as "vague" as you suggest. It has been made very clear by one at least that Protestants are not Christians. Not sure what he considered Roman Catholics to be.
Perhaps the rest of EO's are reticent and vague because they believe the same?
Hello Kelman,
I have been reading what Dred gave me and from this site I found what this, certain kind of being silent is all about.
quote:
Holy Saturday calls us back to what is essential. In the Entrance Hymn especially, it reminds us that our life is a battle ground, where a constant struggle pits us against the Enemy, against the worst inclinations of our fallen nature. Appropriately, it calls us to engage in that struggle with fear, with trembling, and in silence.
One of the great teachers of Orthodox tradition, the fifth-century mystic, Diodochos of Photiki, captured the vital link between inner silence and spiritual warfare with these words:
Spiritual knowledge comes through prayer, deep stillness and complete detachment. . . When the soul's incensive power [thymikon, spiritual wrath] is aroused against the passions, we should know it is time for silence, since the hour of battle is at hand.*
At the close of Holy Week, as we journey with our Lord toward His resurrection, we hear once again in the words of the Great Saturday Hymn of Entrance an invitation to enter into that silence: silence which is essential if we are to assume with real faithfulness the ascetic struggle that characterizes our entire "life in Christ."
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith9165
I put this other website up to support what Dred's site is speaking about.
Father Sofian Boghiu - Inner Purification
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YYF-5EC0Vc&feature=PlayList&p=42F8BEE672D84E97&playnext_from=PL&index=52&playnext=1
Peter
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/18/2010 8:44:56 PM
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patricius79
Posts: 3420
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Hello walterquez, Dred, HeavenDweller Darlene and patricius79,
I've been reading and listening to Orthodox teaching and their thoughts on Ecumenism such as this one source found on youtube. If you have time to listen to it could someone please explain these Canons of the Holy Apostles and what it means today, meaning I'm thinking is this what The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession is still about even today, no Ecumenism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-RdNeKlFs8&feature=PlayList&p=42F8BEE672D84E97&playnext_from=PL&index=30&playnext=2
Peter
I've never heard about these "Canons of the Holy Apostles", unless this is referring to the Apostolic Constitutions.
Catholics and the Orthodox agree that schism has nothing to do with being Christian. This is why we grieve over the tragedies of the schisms, including the reformation schisms. (I'm using schism somewhat broadly)
Once Apostolic Succession as taught in the Scriptures and by all the Trintiarian fathers was abandoned, private judgment reigned and the reformers were immediately at odds: e.g. Calvin and Melanthon at odds on free will, and Luther and Calvin at odds on Sacramentalism, and everyone at odds with the Anabaptists, etc.
As for ecumenism, I'm not very good with people so I'm not ecumenical in that sense. But as an Apostolic Succession-accepting Christian I understand that there is no Ecumenism apart from the true understanding of the Scriptures and Church History AS WELL AS the charity, rapport, and goodwill which melts the mistrust among Christians
Here is a site with good Church fathersdocumentation for anyone who likes:
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/contents.htm
(The "Church fathers" are Apostolic Successors)
"hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter"
(For example, studying the Apostles and their Successors in regard to the Filioque and Peter's Primacy will help to fully reunite Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox. Likewise with the issues of "faith alone" and the other Catholic-Protestant dilemmaas)
I believe this will eventually reunite all Christians in the fulness of the Holy Orders (Succession) which, as St. Irenaeus says, have handed on to us the Church.
When this happens, the last will be first.
peace, pat
< Message edited by patricius79 -- 7/18/2010 8:52:34 PM >
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RE: The New Testament Church and Apostolic Succession - 7/18/2010 11:55:33 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 931
Joined: 4/27/2007
Status: offline
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Hello patricius79,
I'm not clever with my own words but when reading your word's again I am reminded of Jesus words and Paul's letter to the Romans. Jesus tells this story about the Laborers in the Vineyard and the lesson in it leading up to the last will be first, and the first last. Later, Paul is speaking I think about this same issue, to the Jew first and also to the Greek and barbarians. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."
So for all of us who bear His Name and are faithful to His Word as Christians and with confidence are made able to confess Son of God Jesus aren't we then the ones that Jesus and Paul spoke of,
these should be names of Jesus, someone please correct me if these are off.
Yeshua يوشع بن نون Ἰησοῦς Iesus
quote:
Original patricius79
(For example, studying the Apostles and their Successors in regard to the Filioque and Peter's Primacy will help to fully reunite Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox. Likewise with the issues of "faith alone" and the other Catholic-Protestant dilemmaas)
I believe this will eventually reunite all Christians in the fulness of the Holy Orders (Succession) which, as St. Irenaeus says, have handed on to us the Church.
When this happens, the last will be first.
Matthew 20:1-16
Laborers in the Vineyard
1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4and to them he said, 'You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.' 5So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. 6And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, 'Why do you stand here idle all day?' 7They said to him, 'Because no one has hired us.' He said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.' 8And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.' 9And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. 10Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. 11And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, 12saying, 'These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.' 13But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. 15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?'
16So the last will be first, and the first last."
Romans 1:14-17
14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. 15So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."
Peter
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