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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/8/2010 11:10:37 AM
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captainfraulein
Posts: 115
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
As I consider the purpose of the church, I find that one of my questions is this:
Can one truly be a functioning part of a local body IF it's not really "local"?
Let's say you have to drive to the next town--say 30 minutes drive. Or further...maybe an hour?
We did that once, and it was very difficult. Since we didn't live in the same town, any outreach events our church did were focused on their town, not ours...which we didn't mind, except that it meant quite a drive for us to attend and help, and maybe multiple trips to set up, rehearse, whatever. We are the type that tend to be very involved in our churches.
When someone in our church was in crisis, we often didn't know about it...the news got around to everyone in town, but not to those out of town. And if we did hear about it, it was difficult to be able to be of any service.
We were there for 4 years before discovering the oppressively manipulative nature of the pastor, so it's do-able...I just wonder how effective it is, and whether it would be better to be closer to home if at all possible.
Your scriptural thoughts appreciated.
shallbe
My old church had us read "Stop Dating the church" by Joshua Harris. It is strange but the book they asked us to read gave me courage to leave that very said church! It all has to due to with one small passage...a black single man comes into Joshua's church and enjoys it even though he is adjusting to a mostly white church. The thing that struck me was 1) this man obviously was already a believer...and was going to a church 2) he lef that church to come to Joshua's 3) Joshua did not rant/vent go on about how this man broke his "covenant" with his church or any such thing...instead he just pointed out that this man was looking for a church that fed him the Word...and enjoyed the singles events.
I am not very good or articulate on explaining why that was freeing for me, but suffice to say I felt the membership paper I signed was a huge commitment to my church at the time. I did not feel easy with the direction my church was heading. People have been leaving in bunches and while that in itself is not the only thing to look at, it actually was a sign to me to take a step back and ponder. I felt also an uneasiness I could not shake off. Men who were not ready were thrust into positions before their time and the consequences were brash behavior...good solid Chrisitan men who made some real laspes I felt in judgements.
The thing that opened my eyes was driving 45 minutes to church...stopping to pick up my then 11 year old nephew who just called me and asked to come to church. The salvation of my nephew is on my mind...and he rejects church. So I dropped everything to pick that boy up. This delayed me a few minutes. I got there and nobody helped me unload tons of water I brought and the few refreshments. I then got sent over to someone for coffee duty. This person helped me with a cafeteria style huge coffee machine but he had to leave and my nephew thankfully figured it for me (he is a MacGyver wannabe).
I then received an e-mail later doing the sandwich model of adomishing (give positive affirmation then talk about negative then close with positive)...affirming it was good I was loving on my nephew..then going in the for the kill...going off on a tangent of chastising me for being late, which made him "miss his prayer time" and also not a happy camper with my upcoming trip...since coffee duty is one month long. Mind you, I did not know I had "signed up for 1 month coffee duty". 
I very badly handled the situation and when I brought it up to a deacon, he was unable to see anything wrong.
I should have confronted things with the leaders of my church (one of many confrontations) but alas, I chickened out since I felt overwhlemed at the time...my dad had a heart-attack and I just could not take that on. So I wrote a whimpy e-mail instead pointing out 3 reasons I was leaving 1) distance 2) not enough singles & 3) all the change
One elder wanted to meet with me but later on I declined. the other just gave me his blessing.
It took some talks with a pastor at my new church and some loving brothers and sisters until I finally felt the healing come on...my heart was broken.
My new church is way closer and it is a dream and delight on how easy fellowship is. I get migraines and all this driving made it difficult to always fellowship and be on time.
And they preach the Word in expository form..which I love...verse by verse...and books are not the focus, good as some of them are, but only God's Holy Word. 
_____________________________
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." -Jim Elliot
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/8/2010 2:41:44 PM
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gralan
Posts: 499
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From: RV in Texas
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My wife and me believe that we should attend a local church. But within the phrase "local church" both terms need to be understood in proper definition. Church is the gathering of disciples of Jesus Christ to worship God together, primarily. It is a place where people encourage one another in our discipleship, provide educational resources for that end, and a place to operate our gifts and talents to the effect of being built up into the mature spiritual adulthood which is seen complete and full only in Jesus Christ our Lord, Master and Husband to whom we are by betrothal united forever.
That isn't complete, but close enough. So local then for us becomes the idea of going to the nearest gathering that meets such criteria. There are varying stages of successful function, but in our minds if a local church is not on that road as described above then it is not a church we will consider.
This, btw, is how we ended up at an Anglican Church that did indeed see itself within the Reformed Tradition, and was an active group of disciples of Jesus.
We are currently having a problem looking for a local church. Please pray for wisdom for us as we seek to join a fellowship. I am hesitant about starting something, but because of my wife's fragrance intolerance and many people in our area not being able to make it to church on the church's inflexible schedules we may need to start a gathering, although that does not mean we start a church.
I enjoy bouncing in and sharing and reading. Thanks all for being here.
I'm still in pain from the surgery, but I've found how to adjust it to leave me at about a 3 on the pain scale as the nurse advised.
Peace in Him. Out!
_____________________________
your fellow suffering servant,
gralan,
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/9/2010 10:30:27 PM
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Law-n-Gospel
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I was a more than a little disturbed to hear that John Piper, one of my favorite teachers, has asked Rick warren to be a headline speaker at this years Desiring God conference. What an absolutely out of place person to speak at one of the great theological get together's anywhere. What is going on with Piper?.
_____________________________
The Westminster confession
If you want to make men angry preach The Law, if you want to make them furious, preach Grace.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/10/2010 1:37:55 AM
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captainfraulein
Posts: 115
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From: Planet Earth
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Google is my friend, I confirmed this is true. Off to pray. Whoa.
_____________________________
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." -Jim Elliot
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/10/2010 12:13:09 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 220
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
I was a more than a little disturbed to hear that John Piper, one of my favorite teachers, has asked Rick warren to be a headline speaker at this years Desiring God conference. What an absolutely out of place person to speak at one of the great theological get together's anywhere. What is going on with Piper?.
Yes, and several prominent people have criticized him for it. I was just starting to let myself trust John Piper...then he pulls this as well as taking an 8 month leave of absence.
Sounds fishy.
*sigh*
I pray God he just made a mistake in the first place and in the second, truly is just taking a break, and not trying to hide skeletons in the closet: after all, he is past retirement age, and may both physically and spiritually need a long rest.
But it's very suspicious.
I'd like, just for once, to trust a pastor again...
shallbe
_____________________________
Taking a break...
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/10/2010 2:28:05 PM
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captainfraulein
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Maybe he wants to shake up the snugness of many in ivory glass towers that throw stones.
(NOT talking to anyone in particular on CW BTW, just thinking out loud from what I have observed many years in some Reform-bent theological houses)...
_____________________________
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." -Jim Elliot
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/10/2010 6:41:55 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 220
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quote:
ORIGINAL: captainfraulein
Maybe he wants to shake up the snugness of many in ivory glass towers that throw stones.
(NOT talking to anyone in particular on CW BTW, just thinking out loud from what I have observed many years in some Reform-bent theological houses)...
I'm totally cool with that, if that's what he's doing. I hope it is.
shallbe
_____________________________
Taking a break...
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/20/2010 10:23:10 AM
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AprilMtns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeffriesw
Will any of you be going to the National Conference being put on by Ligonier Minsistries (RC Sproul) in Orlando. I have never been to something like this before and thought I would go check it out since I am so close (About 60 Miles for me)
http://www.ligonier.org/events/2010-national/schedule/
(Hope it is alright to post a link..)
I was able to go a few years ago it was awesome! You will LOVE the conference!
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~April~
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/20/2010 10:36:48 AM
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AprilMtns
Posts: 681
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
I was a more than a little disturbed to hear that John Piper, one of my favorite teachers, has asked Rick warren to be a headline speaker at this years Desiring God conference. What an absolutely out of place person to speak at one of the great theological get together's anywhere. What is going on with Piper?.
I have been gone for three weeks and just picking up the thread. I want to know why Piper chose Warren also! Very disturbing. I have been reading Piper's sermons since I left Minneapolis.
_____________________________
~April~
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/20/2010 11:05:07 AM
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Eutychus
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At the risk of causing shock and dismay, I have no serious problem with Rick Warren. IMO, his audience is the many babes in Christ without a church background and without much indoctrination in church or Christianity. Within the SBC where he mostly preaches, that is a sizable group. We have people from all sorts and no traditions. Adults with no undersatnding of worship or service or stewardship or Christian community. They have the impression that a one hour attendance is the extent of their obligation to the church family. And they think church is all about them.
Most of you would consider his messages to be at best milk rather than meat and so do I. However, there are many out there not ready for meat but nobody else is trying to bring them up to speed.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/20/2010 12:04:20 PM
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theprincessbuttercup
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I've never been on this thread, but I was intrigued when I saw the link to the state-by-state listing of churches. Turns out that my wonderful home church, Grace Life Church of the Shoals is on there! I have to say that I don't know all of what RT is about, but what I read on that web-site sounds like what I believe. Who knew?
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/20/2010 2:56:26 PM
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Law-n-Gospel
Posts: 623
Joined: 6/14/2009
From: Death to life.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theprincessbuttercup
I've never been on this thread, but I was intrigued when I saw the link to the state-by-state listing of churches. Turns out that my wonderful home church, Grace Life Church of the Shoals is on there! I have to say that I don't know all of what RT is about, but what I read on that web-site sounds like what I believe. Who knew?
Is Jeff Noblitt your pastor?, if so i really enjoy listening to him, a very solid man. He is also solidly Reformed (RT) so you are in good hands.
_____________________________
The Westminster confession
If you want to make men angry preach The Law, if you want to make them furious, preach Grace.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/20/2010 3:06:50 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 12145
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Reform_Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: theprincessbuttercup
I've never been on this thread, but I was intrigued when I saw the link to the state-by-state listing of churches. Turns out that my wonderful home church, Grace Life Church of the Shoals is on there! I have to say that I don't know all of what RT is about, but what I read on that web-site sounds like what I believe. Who knew?
Is Jeff Noblitt your pastor?, if so i really enjoy listening to him, a very solid man. He is also solidly Reformed (RT) so you are in good hands.
There's an interesting article on Jeff Noblitt at his church's website on how he arrived at his theological views.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/20/2010 3:32:39 PM
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Law-n-Gospel
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I had heard some of this before in audio, but not to this degree, thanks for posting the link Euty. This is what the Church should look like, it's Biblical and it's historical. When i became reformed i knew this is what i was destined to become, i knew it was the Lord who moved me ever onward to this point in my walk, kind of like i had finally arrived into His kingdom. I hope that makes sense, but i'll bet you feel like that as well Euty, in your own way at least.
_____________________________
The Westminster confession
If you want to make men angry preach The Law, if you want to make them furious, preach Grace.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/21/2010 9:41:57 AM
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Eutychus
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Dave, having been raised and having spent more than half my life in the Arminian fold, God had to use extraordinary means just to nudge me out of that fold and be able to even consider RT. But once I got past a certain point, it made far more spiritual sense and I began to see the Arminian POV as very rational to the natural mind. Grace is so radically different than natural reasoning that most believers only get a glimpse of it.
One big influence on me was an honest reading of Spurgeon's biography when I was still on the other side but didn't know that he was a 5 Pointer. Spurgeon sems to be universally respected and quoted among Protestants that his RT theology isn't always mentioned.
Another influence on me was TheoJunkie, a member who posted some in the last RT chat thread and in the C/A debate thread - and who I miss very much. He never seemed to be confrontational or fall prey to the bait of name calling, he just stayed with the ideas. One day he got through to me with the question of why I had enough faith to appropriate the gift of salvation when the majority of people do not. I couldn't take credit for saving faith, none of us can - it had to come from something, or rather someone, else than my fallen nature. That put a huge chink in my Arminian-influenced thinking.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/21/2010 1:24:18 PM
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ShallbeRebuilt
Posts: 220
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
At the risk of causing shock and dismay, I have no serious problem with Rick Warren. IMO, his audience is the many babes in Christ without a church background and without much indoctrination in church or Christianity. Within the SBC where he mostly preaches, that is a sizable group. We have people from all sorts and no traditions. Adults with no undersatnding of worship or service or stewardship or Christian community. They have the impression that a one hour attendance is the extent of their obligation to the church family. And they think church is all about them.
Most of you would consider his messages to be at best milk rather than meat and so do I. However, there are many out there not ready for meat but nobody else is trying to bring them up to speed.
Euty, I totally do not want to wrangle about this, but I'm a bit confused by all the "I am of Paul vs. I am of Apollos" talk about Rick Warren. I think his use of scripture is sans any recognizably proper hermeneutics, and I have heard that many people have been forced to leave churches where his ideas are taught, not because they disagree with the teachings but because somehow they didn't fit the "purpose-driven" model, and found no place to serve any more.
I haven't personally encountered any one to whom this has happened...at least I don't THINK I have. BUT...if I am understanding things rightly about his very pragmatic approach, it's possible that I, myself, am a victim of his teachings.
So I'm interested. Have you or any one here heard of people who have had to leave churches because of his teachings and model? If so, what was the reasoning? How did it come about?
Inquiring minds want to know...and understand.
shallbe
_____________________________
Taking a break...
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/21/2010 1:52:43 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 12145
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ShallbeRebuilt
So I'm interested. Have you or any one here heard of people who have had to leave churches because of his teachings and model? If so, what was the reasoning? How did it come about?
I've never heard of such a thing. Our church went through Warren's 40 days of Purpose quite a few years ago. There was nothing in it I saw that could exclude anyone. It was Christianity 101 and really, IMO, was summed up within the first few pages, "It's not all about me" - the opposite of a lot of members' attitude today.
My only objection was that he appeared sometimes to use a verse out of context to make a valid point that could have been made with more appropriate scripture. But his main audience and I mentioned are babes in Christ.
You have to understand that Southern Baptist churches aren't generally dogmatic and about the only common doctrines are baptism of the believer by immersion and their version of POTS. So new members not raised in Baptist churches don't get a lot of basics.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/22/2010 9:59:48 AM
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theprincessbuttercup
Posts: 1083
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From: Boo Radley's back yard
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I agree with Euty. The term Southern Baptist has become VERY broad. I didn'e really realize that until I got to college and met a lot of Southern Baptists who were VERY different from what I was used to. Since all of our ministers attended Mid_America Baptist Theological Seminary when B. Gray Allison was pres, we had a very unified set of teachings (and very solid IMO). That's also where my DH went. The sermons were very "meaty" and personal discipleship and disciple-making were key.
I do have a question. DH and I were discussing Calvinism, and I commented that I couldn't wrap my head around God dragging some people kicking and screaming to heaven and shutting others out who are begging for him. I know that isn't how it works,; we were just kind of joking around. I have always believed that God knows who will come to him because he is sovreign, so the forcing or prohibiting is a strawman. Any thoughts? I just never really titled my theology - hadn't really heard much about reformed until I got here. I just knew what I was taught, had studied, and what I believe.
It is funny to be that when I took a "What denomination are you?" quiz on FB, it said Presbyterian! Do they clap in church???
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/23/2010 1:47:59 AM
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gralan
Posts: 499
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: RV in Texas
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It depends upon which church you go to. Hi, I'm gralan.
UPC up in Seattle, when I attended, had a time after the church service for folks to come up for prayer, healing, etc. The elders and pastors met up front with those who were coming for wholeness of a specific nature. It was classic charismatic, meaning that God acts through the Holy Spirit to perform works as God determines (including instant healing if need be.)
Manor Baptist Church in San Antonio, before they disincorporated, was more reformed theology than a number of Presbyterian churches I've attended. Many, including the modern push since the early 20th century, in the SBC just do not know their church history at all from what I've been able to glean from my experience in the SBC for over 5 years.
In 1999 I picked up some kneeling rails from an SBC church in the Texas Hill Country that was renovating their church after 80 years or so. You never know by a title.
IMO.
Peace in Him. Out!
quote:
ORIGINAL: theprincessbuttercup
It is funny to be that when I took a "What denomination are you?" quiz on FB, it said Presbyterian! Do they clap in church???
_____________________________
your fellow suffering servant,
gralan,
//TrinityTheology.org/
//freecourses.org/
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever...
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/23/2010 8:57:14 AM
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Kiltman
Posts: 373
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I attended Baylor U. at the height of the Undergraduate Religion Department vs. The Bible. Highland Baptist Church in Waco was an incredible refuge. The pastor at that time belonged to a consortium of SBC churches called "Fullness" (an emphasis on the Spirit-filled life). That group published a "fullness" magazine. It was charismatic to a degree. A book by Jack Taylor about fullness would best describe their stance. Not pentecostal, i.e., fruit was the evidence of being filled, not speaking in tongues.
The Highland pastor had a strong relationship with an inner-city charistmatic Episcopalian Church in Houston. They came and sang the entire mass that was written by John Michael Talbot (if memory serves me, some of the Apostles Creed used was reworded).
Not reformed, but a bright jewel from my past experience.
< Message edited by Kiltman -- 4/23/2010 1:32:09 PM >
_____________________________
Christianity is not a matter of persuading people of particular ideas, but of inviting them to share in the greatness of Christ" ~ Ignatius of Antioch (2nd Century A.D.)
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/23/2010 9:24:59 AM
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theprincessbuttercup
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Was Jack Taylor the one who wrote The Hallelujah Factor? I read that in college.
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RE: Reformed Theology Chat Thread - 2010 edition - 4/23/2010 1:29:58 PM
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Kiltman
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Upon further review . . . yes. And I didn't know that. Thanks! Now I have another book to read.
That book about the Spirit-filled life is, "The Key to Triumphant Living: An Adventure in Personal Discovery".
_____________________________
Christianity is not a matter of persuading people of particular ideas, but of inviting them to share in the greatness of Christ" ~ Ignatius of Antioch (2nd Century A.D.)
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