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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2008 1:41:41 PM
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Keabird
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Oh - just wanted to add - the point I was making about Paul was that GOD called him while he was still not repentant.
Consider this from the point of view of today's church considering those "suitable" for ministry. It's known that there is a man going around who is obsessed with making things difficult for God's people - he is really persecuting them. Whether some want to admit it or not, they are afraid of this man; they have already heard of friends and other Christians who have died at the hands of this man.
While thinking about those who will minister, someone suggests - maybe we should call this man Saul (Paul) into ministry? Obviously he stands for what he believes in ...
Can you imagine the reaction of the church: "WHAT!! This guy doesn't even know the Lord! He's persecuting and killing us! He can't be trusted an inch! How can he minister when he doesn't even know repentance?"
And of course, as a sensible church body, we would not call someone like that into ministry in our church.
But guess what - God did. He sorted him out afterwards. He called him first - directly into ministry.
Radical action, huh?
Just as I wrote that, I was reminded of a testimony of a woman from years ago - she was nicknamed "Harley Helen". Some of you may remember her. In the midst of a life of bikies, drugs and illicit sex, God called her to ministry - He told her He wanted her to sing in bars, or words along that line. From that moment, her life changed.
My point again is: a call to ministry is not dependent on how we are living, or whether we are divorced. It is dependent on our willingness to answer God's call. He is quite capable of sorting out any areas of our life that require changing or repentance in His time. I guess the thing HERE is, that what God would move in someone's heart to change may differ to what a human being in the church may think should change.
In Him
Sherri
_____________________________
"The thief comes to kill, steal and destroy, but I have come that you may have life and have it abundantly." John 10:10
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2008 1:55:51 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
We need to learn to love like HE does.
That was precisely my point... we should be reflecting His love... and that love is not expressed through divorce (quite the opposite). His love never fails... it endures, does not keep record of wrongs. His love allows us to remain faithful and love our spouse unconditionally regardless of their actions and allows us to keep our vows til death. I don't see it as a mistake to choose not to fulfill my vows, or to use my spouse's sin as justification for not keeping my vows that were unconditional.
We are called to be ministers of RECONCILIATION... a Believer should never be irreconcilable.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/11/2008 2:00:19 PM
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keepingfaith
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quote:
While the above may be true of some, it is not true of all. It certainly isn't true of me. I also know many people who haven't "cut off" their former spouse, but rather both endeavour to get along.
Refusing to remain reconcilable like we are commanded to (1cor7:10-11) is cutting someone off and judging them as unredeemable. Jesus came to save ALL............................... and none of us are "worthy."
Our hearts should be kept soft and open to reconciliation.
_____________________________
"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:12-13
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 11/12/2008 3:49:40 AM
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Keabird
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quote:
Refusing to remain reconcilable like we are commanded to (1cor7:10-11) is cutting someone off and judging them as unredeemable.
I disagree with this. It is not us who redeem anyway - it is the Lord. So it's not about redemption. And reconciliation does not necessarily mean living in the same house. It can mean simply a healing of emotions and freedom from bitterness, in order to get along in a Christlike manner. But life changes and people move on - no doubt about it. God is in that too.
In a situation, as I know of some, where the relationship has broken down terribly for all sorts of equally terrible reasons, for both people to make the effort afterwards to at least get along, perhaps so children will have stable time with both parents, that is not "cutting off" - it is to be commended that they managed to get even to that point.
The fact is, none of us "make it" to perfection while still on this earth. We all have areas of our lives that need improving. Sometimes other can see those areas better than we can!  We may be working on those areas the rest of our lives. They will be different areas for different people.
Yet some are allowed in ministry (according to humans that is) while others are not. These are heart matters that only the Holy Spirit can truly deal with. It is not surprising then, that God, who alone knows the heart, speaks into people's lives and calls them where others would not.
_____________________________
"The thief comes to kill, steal and destroy, but I have come that you may have life and have it abundantly." John 10:10
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 12/17/2008 10:46:20 PM
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mikesayen
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[
When is divorce an acceptable option? a christian should not divorce your spouse if they are willing to remain in the marrage 1 Cor 7:10-11 for any reason. And if they are an unbeliever if they want to stay in the marriage even if they commited adultery, you should stay with the 1 Cor 7:12-14. But if the "unbeliever" only wants a divorce or out of the marriage a believer should let them go as a sign as "peace".
What does God think about divorce? God "hates" divorce mal 2:14-16 but there was a time God divorced adulterous Israel Jer 3:1, 8-9.
Is divorce a sin? divorce is a "sin" if done improperly Matt 5:31 if not for the "case of fornication" but if a man (and man only) divorces his wife for sexual immorality in the marriage this is not a "sin". A woman should not divorce her husband 1 Cor 7:39 and Rom 7:2-3 for she is "bound to the law of her husband" for life.
Does divorce make a person ineligible for ministry? Could be, depends upon the divorce if inapropiate or not.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 12/18/2008 7:16:27 PM
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SealedEternal
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
Is divorce a sin? divorce is a "sin" if done improperly Matt 5:31 if not for the "case of fornication" but if a man (and man only) divorces his wife for sexual immorality in the marriage this is not a "sin".
You're not putting that in context:
Matthew 19:3-6 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
When the Pharises asked if divorce was allowable His answer was an uneqivocal NO. Then they asked a separate question about THE LAW OF MOSES (Old Covenant Law):
Matthew 19:7-9 They *said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He *said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for fornication, and marries another woman commits adultery." (TR) And the one who marries her who was put away commits adultery.
He acknowledged a "fornication" provision IN THE LAW OF MOSES, but added that even for Old Covenant people all other divorces were unlawful. Then later when discussing the issue with His disciples, He said that under the New Covenant all divorces were unlawful without exception, to which they were shocked and stated it was better not to marry if it's that perminent:
Mark 10:10-12 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."
Matthew 19:10-12 The disciples *said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. "For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."
SealedEternal
_____________________________
For information on Marriage and Divorce http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 12/18/2008 9:47:14 PM
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mikesayen
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What...? I don't understand what you are disagreeing with, but then again I have written so much about divorce, I might have put my own statement not as I meant. But I think I said accurately but maybe you misunderstood? What are you saying?
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 12/18/2008 10:01:21 PM
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mikesayen
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This is my opinion:
Moses, despite popular belief, did not allow the woman to “put away” her husband but had to remain married to him as long as he lived, Rom 7:2-3, or remain “unmarried” if she was separated from her husband 1 Cor 7:10-11. Gentiles, though not under the Law, have to abstain from “sexual immorality” Acts 15 and that like “adultery,” such as an improper marriage after a divorce Matt 5:32.
Only the woman is told to wait till her husband “sleeps” 1 Cor 7:39, or “dies” Rom 7:2-3, or to remain a “widow” before she remarries 1 Cor 7:9, 1 Tim 5:8 or 9.
The man is given permission to remarry after he is “loosed” from a “wife” while she is still living or has passed away 1 Cor 7:26 (for a man not to “seek” to be loosed from his wife would have made it a possibility to be able to, while she was still living).
A woman was purchased with a “bridal price” Deut 22:13-29, Gen 34, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Rachel Gen 29, or the giving away by her father Num 30:2-16. Since she was under the authority of her husband, she was not allowed to put him away or out of the house. Only the man was allowed to “put away” a wife when she “broke” the covenant to her husband Jer 31:31-34, Hos 3:1-3, by the allowance of man from Moses Law, Matt 19:9, even though a man might have been unfaithful to her.
Divorce is not an “ungodly thing” since God divorced unfaithful “Israel” Jer 3:1-14, though He wishes her to “return”. God divorced Israel giving her over to her ungodly passions until she returns in the wilderness, and all Israel “shall be saved” Rom 9-11.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 12/19/2008 3:03:30 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
This is my opinion:
Moses, despite popular belief, did not allow the woman to “put away” her husband but had to remain married to him as long as he lived, Rom 7:2-3, or remain “unmarried” if she was separated from her husband 1 Cor 7:10-11. Gentiles, though not under the Law, have to abstain from “sexual immorality” Acts 15 and that like “adultery,” such as an improper marriage after a divorce Matt 5:32.
Only the woman is told to wait till her husband “sleeps” 1 Cor 7:39, or “dies” Rom 7:2-3, or to remain a “widow” before she remarries 1 Cor 7:9, 1 Tim 5:8 or 9.
The man is given permission to remarry after he is “loosed” from a “wife” while she is still living or has passed away 1 Cor 7:26 (for a man not to “seek” to be loosed from his wife would have made it a possibility to be able to, while she was still living).
A woman was purchased with a “bridal price” Deut 22:13-29, Gen 34, Isaac and Rebecca, Jacob and Rachel Gen 29, or the giving away by her father Num 30:2-16. Since she was under the authority of her husband, she was not allowed to put him away or out of the house. Only the man was allowed to “put away” a wife when she “broke” the covenant to her husband Jer 31:31-34, Hos 3:1-3, by the allowance of man from Moses Law, Matt 19:9, even though a man might have been unfaithful to her.
Divorce is not an “ungodly thing” since God divorced unfaithful “Israel” Jer 3:1-14, though He wishes her to “return”. God divorced Israel giving her over to her ungodly passions until she returns in the wilderness, and all Israel “shall be saved” Rom 9-11.
But it is the woman who has remarried in Deut. 24:1-4
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 12/19/2008 12:00:26 PM
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mikesayen
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Good job :) It is the woman who is remarried in Deut 24:1-4 but this "permission" was not focused on what the woman did but instruction to the man only, alot of people don't realize that. And this is why it tells the man if the woman was "divorced" from her husband or if he died he is not to re marry her..this is instruction on no matter what the woman did he may not take her back. and if you notice it says if the second husband "hates" her, for she was unclean going into the second marriage already.
love you guys, michael
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 12/19/2008 12:03:58 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
Good job :) It is the woman who is remarried in Deut 24:1-4 but this "permission" was not focused on what the woman did but instruction to the man only, alot of people don't realize that. And this is why it tells the man if the woman was "divorced" from her husband or if he died he is not to re marry her..this is instruction on no matter what the woman did he may not take her back. and if you notice it says if the second husband "hates" her, for she was unclean going into the second marriage already.
love you guys, michael
Actually it says the first husband may not take her back ONLY if she has remarried, and it is clear from that verse that she can remarry. Also there is a big 'OR" next to the 'hates her' part, and the hatred is not something stated about his view of his wife when he married her, but only when he was choosing to divorce her.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 12/19/2008 4:30:19 PM
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mikesayen
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hi :) since it says in Deut 24 verse 4 he must not take her back after she has been "defiled" shows that she was defiled by the second marriage, not that if he took her back then she would become defiled..for she is already defiled. This is where Paul got the authority for saying Rom 7:2-3
I am not sure what version you are using but the "or" is if the second husband "hates her" or is the latter husband "dies" this is to show the first husband that what ever the cause it would be sin for him to remarry her.
Now because it does not say the woman sinned by marrying the second husband that it is to be persumed that it is not a sin for her to remarry this was the "permission" or "allowence" to divorce his wife for uncleanliness and the focus is not on the woman for if the first husband did divorce his wife for uncleanliness than she already is an "adulterous" Matt 5:31-32.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/7/2009 9:59:29 PM
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Mindy-and-Me
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Mike - are you saying that a man can divorce his wife if she is guilty of adultery, but a woman can not divorce her husband if he is guilty of adultery? I never heard that before - that a man can but a woman can't. Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/7/2009 11:16:19 PM
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mikesayen
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That is correct, according to the Law of Moses that is. When the Pharases and the Scribes (concerning the Law of Moses) spoke to Jesus about divorce in Matt 5:31-32, matt 19:9, Luke 16:18 and the like it was about understanding Deut 24:1 "uncleanliness". But Jesus "commands" christian men not to "leave" their wives for any reason including sexual immorality done by the wife. And the christian woman is not to "separate" or "depart" from a husband too 1 Cor 7:10-11. (with the proper understanding of divorce given in the Law we can better understand why Paul used these Greek words here, spacifically) so under no condition is a man or a woman who is a christian to divorce their spouse, as long as they are willing to remain in the marriage (1 Cor 7:15).
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/8/2009 7:08:22 PM
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DerWeg
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A man can divorce his wife is she commits adultery, but a woman cannot divorce her husband if he's trying to kill her?
Is this God's law or a human law?
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/8/2009 9:18:02 PM
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mikesayen
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DerWeg
A man can divorce his wife is she commits adultery, but a woman cannot divorce her husband if he's trying to kill her?
Is this God's law or a human law?
a Jewish man or a unbeliever living under the Law of Moses may be able to divorce a woman if she committed adultery in the marriage, and not have it count against them (at judgement). But a Christian man is not to "leave" 1 Cor 7:11b his wife, even if she committed sexual immorality in the marriage (same Greek word used in 1 Cor 7:12-13 "leave" of how a christian Gentile did a like "put away" of the Jewish law).
The bible says man is not to separate what God joined togeather and the 'only' allowence God gave to Moses was if the woman was found with some sort of "uncleanliness" found in her "sexual immorality".
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/8/2009 10:56:31 PM
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DerWeg
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I understand that no one can remarry after divorce- man or woman. I also understand that the only way man can divorce his wife is if she commits adultery. But my question was- can a woman divorce her husband if he commits adultery? Provided she does not remarry.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2009 1:12:23 AM
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mikesayen
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DerWeg
I understand that no one can remarry after divorce- man or woman. I also understand that the only way man can divorce his wife is if she commits adultery. But my question was- can a woman divorce her husband if he commits adultery? Provided she does not remarry.
That is incorrect. The man can remarry (while the ex wife is still living) in since he had the authority to divorce by Moses but commanded not to by Jesus, if she divorced him and she did commit adultery in the marriage or married another man, he is "loosed" from being "bound" to his wife and thus can remarry (see 1 Cor 7:26-27 for only the man). But a wife can not divorce her husband no matter what (was not allowed according to Moses law in Deut 24:1) so she can not remarry any man (for only the woman is told she is bound to the "law" of the other and only the woman is told in the new testament she much wait to be a widow before she can remarry 1 Tim 5:9 "becomeing wife of one husband", 1 Cor 7:39 from Rom 7:2-3 and meantioned in a somewhat fashion in 1 Cor 7:8-9.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2009 3:18:48 AM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: DerWeg
I understand that no one can remarry after divorce- man or woman. I also understand that the only way man can divorce his wife is if she commits adultery. But my question was- can a woman divorce her husband if he commits adultery? Provided she does not remarry.
That is incorrect. The man can remarry (while the ex wife is still living) in since he had the authority to divorce by Moses but commanded not to by Jesus, if she divorced him and she did commit adultery in the marriage or married another man, he is "loosed" from being "bound" to his wife and thus can remarry (see 1 Cor 7:26-27 for only the man). But a wife can not divorce her husband no matter what (was not allowed according to Moses law in Deut 24:1) so she can not remarry any man (for only the woman is told she is bound to the "law" of the other and only the woman is told in the new testament she much wait to be a widow before she can remarry 1 Tim 5:9 "becomeing wife of one husband", 1 Cor 7:39 from Rom 7:2-3 and meantioned in a somewhat fashion in 1 Cor 7:8-9.
There is no prohibition in Scripture against a woman remarrying unless she is divorced for reasons not permitted in Scripture (as is the case for men too). In Duet. 24:1-4 the only prohibition against remarriage is the remarriage to a former spouse when there has been an intervening marriage. And the statement about her being "unclean" only applies to the remarriage to the first husband because it was he who declared her unclean. In this passage their was no prohibition against the second marriage that is also mentioned in this same passage. Also in 1 Co. 7 when Paul was speaking about husbands and wives who were married to unChristian spouses who abandon the marriage, he deals with each case equally stating that both husbands and wives are no longer enslaved in those circumstances.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2009 4:48:06 PM
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DerWeg
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Well Corinthians says pretty bluntly that a man must not put away his wife, and a wife must not leave her husband.
10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
So how do we make this compatible with what Jesus says in Matthew? That if a man remarries after divorcing, he commits adultery, unless his wife has already committed adultery. Maybe he's not saying it's OKAY for the husband to divorce her for adultery. It sounds like he's simply saying if he does, and he remarries, he's not committing adultery, because she has already done so in the first place.
Maybe divorce for adultery is not acceptable after all? Or maybe I'm reading this wrong.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2009 4:57:41 PM
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DerWeg
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1 Corinthians 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
I'm not sure if 'departing' meant divorcing here- but if it did, does this mean this would be an acceptable case?
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2009 5:04:50 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DerWeg
Well Corinthians says pretty bluntly that a man must not put away his wife, and a wife must not leave her husband.
10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
So how do we make this compatible with what Jesus says in Matthew? That if a man remarries after divorcing, he commits adultery, unless his wife has already committed adultery. Maybe he's not saying it's OKAY for the husband to divorce her for adultery. It sounds like he's simply saying if he does, and he remarries, he's not committing adultery, because she has already done so in the first place.
Maybe divorce for adultery is not acceptable after all? Or maybe I'm reading this wrong.
There is a two fold problem with that interpretation. First, if you interpret the 1 Co. 7.10-11 as a prohibition against all divorce then you have Paul contradicting himself several verses later in 1 Co. 7.15-16 when he lays the foundation for divorce when a spouse has been abandoned by an unbelieving spouse. Second, there is no way to interpret the Greek of Mt. 5 or 19 as you have interpreted it. Even interpreting the English in this way is a stretch.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2009 5:11:43 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DerWeg
1 Corinthians 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
I'm not sure if 'departing' meant divorcing here- but if it did, does this mean this would be an acceptable case?
Here is the definition of the Greek given in Theyer's Greek Lexicon of the NT.
χωρίζω; future χωρίσω (Buttmann, 37 (33)); 1 aorist infinitive χωρίσαι; present middle χωρίζομαι; perfect passive participle κεχωρισμένος; 1 aorist passive ἐχωρίσθην; (χωρίς, which see); from Herodotus down; to separate, divide, part, put asunder: τί, opposed to συζεύγνυμι, Matt. 19:6; Mark 10:9; τινα ἀπό τίνος, Rom. 8:35,39,(Sap. 1:3); perfect passive participle Heb. 7:26. Middle and 1 aorist passive with a reflexive significance: to separate oneself from, to depart; a. to leave a husband or wife: of divorce, 1 Cor. 7:11,15; ἀπό ἀνδρός, 1 Cor. 7:10 (a woman κεχωρισμενη ἀπό τοῦ ἀνδρός, Polybius 32, 12, 6 (others)). b. to depart, go away: (absolutely, Philemon 1:15 (euphemism for ἔφυγε), R. V. was parted from thee); followed by ἀπό with a genitive of the place, Acts 1:4; ἐκ with a genitive of the place, Acts 18:1f. ((Winer's Grammar, sec. 36, 6 a.); εἰς with an accusative of the place, 2 Macc. 5:21; 12:12; Polybius, Diodorus, others). (Compare: ἀποχωρίζω, διαχωρίζω.)*
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2009 5:47:41 PM
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DerWeg
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: DerWeg
1 Corinthians 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
I'm not sure if 'departing' meant divorcing here- but if it did, does this mean this would be an acceptable case?
Here is the definition of the Greek given in Theyer's Greek Lexicon of the NT.
÷ùñίæù; future ÷ùñίóù (Buttmann, 37 (33)); 1 aorist infinitive ÷ùñίóáé; present middle ÷ùñίæïìáé; perfect passive participle êå÷ùñéóìέíïò; 1 aorist passive ἐ÷ùñίóèçí; (÷ùñίò, which see); from Herodotus down; to separate, divide, part, put asunder: ôί, opposed to óõæåύãíõìé, Matt. 19:6; Mark 10:9; ôéíá ἀðό ôίíïò, Rom. 8:35,39,(Sap. 1:3); perfect passive participle Heb. 7:26. Middle and 1 aorist passive with a reflexive significance: to separate oneself from, to depart; a. to leave a husband or wife: of divorce, 1 Cor. 7:11,15; ἀðό ἀíäñόò, 1 Cor. 7:10 (a woman êå÷ùñéóìåíç ἀðό ôïῦ ἀíäñόò, Polybius 32, 12, 6 (others)). b. to depart, go away: (absolutely, Philemon 1:15 (euphemism for ἔöõãå), R. V. was parted from thee); followed by ἀðό with a genitive of the place, Acts 1:4; ἐê with a genitive of the place, Acts 18:1f. ((Winer's Grammar, sec. 36, 6 a.); åἰò with an accusative of the place, 2 Macc. 5:21; 12:12; Polybius, Diodorus, others). (Compare: ἀðï÷ùñίæù, äéá÷ùñίæù.)*
Okay that didn't really do anything for me. But back to where you said that my interpretation of the English version was a stretch- can you explain to me why? Also I have not read or studied the bible in Greek, so can you tell me how that verse in Matthew is to be interpreted in Greek?
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