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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 1/7/2006 6:32:00 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NaturalBranch
Scripture clearly teaches the return of Christ in power and glory. THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED YET. Scripture also teaches that the world will wax old and that seducers will wax worse and worse. Isaiah 51:6, II Timothy 3:13. Scripture does NOT teach that the world will get better and better.
Matthew 24:12 declares: "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."
Think how prevalent sin, iniquity, and open violation of God's laws have become over the past thirty years. Several million unborn babies have been legally slaughtered in America alone in the last twenty years, because the love of many has waxed cold.
Matthew 24:37-39 declares: "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
If you study the characteristics of the days of Noah prior to the flood you will find that they are very comparable to our present day. Every form of wickedness imaginable was rampant among the masses according to Genesis 6:5; 11-12 which states:
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually...The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."
II Thessalonians 2:1-3 states: "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
II Peter 2:1-3 states: "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."
II Timothy 4:3-4 states: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
I Timothy 4:1-4 gives another description of the moral and doctrinal departure that will be evident in the last days:
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away...But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived" II Tim. 3:1-5 & 13
THE LAST DAYS ACCORDING TO JAMES:
"Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you. Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh". James 5:1-8
THE LAST DAYS ACCORDING TO PETER AND JUDE:
"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, 'Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation'" (II Pet. 3:3-4).
"How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit" (Jude 18-19).
So, it seems that scripture DOES NOT support the idea that the world is getting better and better.
May all true believers follow the admonition of Jesus Christ until He comes:
Philippians 2:14-16 "Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life..."
NaturalBranch
And I believe all those verses you have given to be speaking to the first century Christian specifically. Telling of things that were happening right then and would be happening in their lifetime. The reason? To encourage them and give them hope.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/7/2006 6:34:10 PM
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FatherKnowsBest
Posts: 65
Joined: 9/10/2005
From: Sandpoint, ID
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Hi Debbie,
quote:
Sooner and Larryhill: As you know I am partial preterist aka orthodox preterist and I agree with you on most things concerning 70 AD, could you however clarify what you mean when you say resurrection? Are you talking the resurrection of Christ from the grave, the resurrection of the dead? And could you go into more detail. Thanks.
So far I have only referred to the general resurrection aka the resurrection of the dead. The dead, as I see it, are those in Hades or Sheol that died before the New Covenant. The ones that were resurrected to eternal life are the Old Testament saints. The ones who were resurrected to condemnation were the pagans and the wicked among the children of Israel. I believe they were given actual bodies, but not reanimated earthly bodies. You believe, I'm sure, that they are not in Hades, but in heaven. This is what I believe, but I believe this happened at 70AD. I believe what is commonly called the rapture happened at that time, but not in the way it is commonly understood. The believers did not leave the ground, but were changed. The exact nature of this change I do not know except that Christ and not only the Holy Spirit came to reside in them. When I depart aka die, then I will receive a body. I don't, however, believe that receiving a body is the resurrection. The resurrection is being made alive spiritually so that we will never be separated from God. God has no problem making a body for us to reside in, but it was a big thing for God to send His Son to die on the cross and suffer all the things associated with it so that we might be reconciled to Him.
I hope this helps.
Larry
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/7/2006 7:17:04 PM
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FatherKnowsBest
Posts: 65
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From: Sandpoint, ID
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quote:
I think it was Paul who said "There are those who claim the resurrection has already taken place, and they have destroyed the faith of some". Paul was not of coarse speaking of Jesus' resurrection, but of the event spoken of in Revulation, which is odd, because Revelation wasn't written at this point!
Goingup,
I dealt with this on another thread, but here is a little more explanation of it. The text you are referring to is 2 Tim. 2:18.
2ti 2:16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
2ti 2:17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
2ti 2:18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
I believe it is clear from this passage that Paul's view of Hymenaeus and Philetus are that they are not of the faith of Christ. Since they overthrow the faith of some, their faith must also be null. Paul is very harsh on these men. They were indead spreading ungodliness by their message. Saying that the resurrection of past was the main issue of Pauls harshness.
When we come to some Corinthian believers who said there is no resurrection of the dead, it is a completely different story with Paul.
1co 15:11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
1co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
Paul is clear that he is speaking to fellow believers, believers who claimed that there was no resurrection of the dead. He makes this clear in other verses also:
1co 15:14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
1co 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
The main issue is not Christ's resurrection, but their denial of the resurrection. Paul uses Christ not rising as a logical result of the denial of the resurrection of the dead. He then logically deduces that if Christ has not risen, then their faith is empty. But they did not deny Christ’s resurrection nor the salvation of those Christians who have already died. If they did, then their faith would be empty.
1co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
Who is Paul calling “my beloved brethren”? They would, of course, include those who denied the resurrection of the dead. This is a phrase of great love and affection. It shows that they were still of the faith.
So now why did Paul condemn those who said the resurrection was past, but have great affection for those who denied the resurrection all together? In the futurist’s perspective this makes no sense. Denying the resurrection and saying it is past are equally evil according to your view.
No where in scripture does it condemn those who would say that our physical bodies are not raised. But it does condemn those who would resort back to depending on the law for salvation. This is an act of losing their faith. How does this apply to Hymenaeus and Philitus? By saying that the resurrection was past before the temple and the law past meant that these things would continue as they had from the beginning. This meant that those who had their faith in Christ better resort back to depending on the law for salvation. The early Christian Jews still participated in temple worship, but they did not depend on the law for salvation.
By the way, you are making some assumptions on the dating of Revelation. It was written before 70AD. I will not take the time now to support this. If you want a scholarly book on the subject then "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry is what you should read.
< Message edited by larrysawhill -- 1/7/2006 10:46:15 PM >
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/7/2006 11:37:23 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4079
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Thank you Fritz for starting this! Wishes really do come true...
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/8/2006 12:34:43 AM
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JoshuaMiller79
Posts: 68
Joined: 12/23/2005
From: Virginia
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I'm so excited. Someone is letting me borrow their copy of Matthew 24 Fulfilled. I can't wait till I have finished it and am more educated regarding Preterism. This is my first dip into the proverbial pool of preterism. So far I've only put my feet in the water through talking to people about it and this is the first book I've been able to get my hands on.
I'm trying to be open minded because what I am after is the truth and I do believe that God made the world so that we have the ability to study the evidence and discover the truth.
< Message edited by JoshuaMiller79 -- 1/9/2006 12:01:43 AM >
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/8/2006 3:27:03 AM
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NaturalBranch
Posts: 6
Joined: 1/7/2006
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Joshua,
God gave us His Word so that we can compare scripture to scripture and arrive at truth. He did not inspire Matthew 24 Fulfilled, I can assure you.
If you really want the truth you seem to be seeking, try studying the inspired scripture itself for yourself, not an uninspired book of men.
One-fifth of scripture is prophetic...much prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/8/2006 3:35:20 AM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
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So Natural do you think that the "Left Behind" series is inspired?
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/8/2006 3:43:55 AM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: larrysawhill
Hi Debbie,
quote:
Sooner and Larryhill: As you know I am partial preterist aka orthodox preterist and I agree with you on most things concerning 70 AD, could you however clarify what you mean when you say resurrection? Are you talking the resurrection of Christ from the grave, the resurrection of the dead? And could you go into more detail. Thanks.
So far I have only referred to the general resurrection aka the resurrection of the dead. The dead, as I see it, are those in Hades or Sheol that died before the New Covenant. The ones that were resurrected to eternal life are the Old Testament saints. The ones who were resurrected to condemnation were the pagans and the wicked among the children of Israel. I believe they were given actual bodies, but not reanimated earthly bodies. You believe, I'm sure, that they are not in Hades, but in heaven. This is what I believe, but I believe this happened at 70AD. I believe what is commonly called the rapture happened at that time, but not in the way it is commonly understood. The believers did not leave the ground, but were changed. The exact nature of this change I do not know except that Christ and not only the Holy Spirit came to reside in them. When I depart aka die, then I will receive a body. I don't, however, believe that receiving a body is the resurrection. The resurrection is being made alive spiritually so that we will never be separated from God. God has no problem making a body for us to reside in, but it was a big thing for God to send His Son to die on the cross and suffer all the things associated with it so that we might be reconciled to Him.
I hope this helps.
Larry
Yes, it does help to clarify. Thanks although I do disagree. I believe not only will we have incorruptible sinless immortal bodies but the saints in heaven will also receive immortal bodies (2 Cor 5)
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/8/2006 3:51:29 AM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
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Paul taught that we are spiritually resurrected with Christ already.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:9-11 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
But Paul spoke of a future physical resurrection as well.
1Co 15:50-55 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:3-8 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: (6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. (7) After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. (8) And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 1/8/2006 5:14:09 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1662
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sooner
quote:
Preterists are referred to as SCOFFERS in the book of II Peter:
II Peter 3:3-4
"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, 'Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.'"
It is not the preterist who are asking "where is the promise of His coming. It is only the preterist who say He kept His promise. Nice try though.
Greetings,
If he kept his promise then please explain how he kept it?
John 1:5-14
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
I do not see in verse 12 where it mentions that all have received him for his promise to be kept.
I believe we are bearing witness of that light until he returns,
If Christ returned as the second coming suggests by “It is only the preterist who say He kept His promise.”
Paul was saved but is preaching to believers below, there is no mention that darkness is expelled or that the threat still does not exist. Where did he keep his promise?
Thessalonians 5:1-5
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/8/2006 5:50:08 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1662
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JoshuaMiller79
I'm so excited. Someone is letter me borrow their copy of Matthew 24 Fulfilled. I can't wait till I have finished it and am more educated regarding Preterism. This is my first dip into the proverbial pool of preterism. So far I've only put my feet in the water through talking to people about it and this is the first book I've been able to get my hands on.
I'm trying to be open minded because what I am after is the truth and I do believe that God made the world so that we have the ability to study the evidence and discover the truth.
Greetings,
xxxxxxx mentioned "CORRECTION"
quote:
Goingup,
I dealt with this on another thread, but here is a little more explanation of it. The text you are referring to is 2 Tim. 2:18.
2ti 2:16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
2ti 2:17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
2ti 2:18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
Greetings,
Try 2 Peter 4-7 for some more evidential truths,
Here are some myths to understand what Timothy is suggesting in comparison to Hymenaeus and Philetus
Hymenaeus (the god of marriage, son of Dionysus and Venus) had been called to bless with his presence the nuptials of Orpheus with Eurydice; but though he attended, he brought no happy omens with him. His very torch smoked and brought tears into their eyes.
In accordance with such prognostics, Eurydice, shortly after her marriage, while wandering with the nymphs, her companions (and sisters), was seen by the shepherd Aristaeus, who was struck by her beauty and made advances to her. She fled, and in fleeing trod upon a snake in the grass, was bitten in the foot and died.
Notice it mentions “No happy Omens” trying to bless another just by their presence with nothing to offer created an obstacle, and one thing led to the other. “His very torch smoked and brought tears into their eyes.”
In other words its an annoyance that leads to other things. “Shortly after her marriage,” she trod upon a snake in the grass, was bitten in the foot and died.”
Why would Timothy be comparing the two Hymenaeus and Alexander to doctrine?; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they might learn not to blaspheme.
NKJ
1:19
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1:20
Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Basically Preterism beliefs are blaspheme according to the truth in the bible, if one wishes to compare to the mythological teachings above it is like a bad omen, thus the comparison to mythology made by Timothy (Paul)?
And 100 percent of time these are eventually delivered to Satan, for adjustments.
Be careful what you are reading….
Loyal Gypsy
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 1/9/2006 1:44:20 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/8/2006 10:12:25 AM
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sooner
Posts: 133
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
I'm so excited. Someone is letter me borrow their copy of Matthew 24 Fulfilled. I can't wait till I have finished it and am more educated regarding Preterism.
That is an excellent book. John Bray also wrote a little book “Israel in Bible Prophecy”, you can look up his address in the back of your book and send for this book free of charge.
May I recommend “Last Days Madness” by Gary DeMar as your next book.
quote:
God gave us His Word so that we can compare scripture to scripture and arrive at truth. He did not inspire Matthew 24 Fulfilled, I can assure you.
If you really want the truth you seem to be seeking, try studying the inspired scripture itself for yourself, not an uninspired book of men.
So you are telling me you don’t read books? Not that that is surprising. Perhaps we should shut down seminaries since they teach out of uninspired books. Why listen to a preacher, since he is not inspired he is just giving his own opinion of what scripture teaches. Yes, lets just all sit around and read our Bibles to ourselves and not learn from one another.
quote:
One-fifth of scripture is prophetic...much prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.
Where did you learn that? Some uninspired book?
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/8/2006 7:43:28 PM
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FatherKnowsBest
Posts: 65
Joined: 9/10/2005
From: Sandpoint, ID
Status: offline
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quote:
Basically Preterism beliefs are blaspheme according to the truth in the bible, if one wishes to compare to the mythological teachings above it is like a bad omen, thus the comparison to mythology made by Timothy (Paul)?
LoyalGypsy,
I don't know where you got the mythology from, and I don't how it relates to preterism except that one of the men Paul condemned has a name in common.
What about my last post #28? Can you really argue that Paul condemnation of Hymenaeus and Philetus extends to preterists?
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2006 1:35:45 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1662
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: larrysawhill
quote:
Basically Preterism beliefs are blaspheme according to the truth in the bible, if one wishes to compare to the mythological teachings above it is like a bad omen, thus the comparison to mythology made by Timothy (Paul)?
LoyalGypsy,
I don't know where you got the mythology from, and I don't how it relates to Preterism except that one of the men Paul condemned has a name in common.
What about my last post #28? Can you really argue that Paul condemnation of Hymenaeus and Philetus extends to preterists?
quote:
Philetus
Greetings,
It doesn't mention either if Hymenaeus and Philetus were Roman or Greek.
However the best I can offer is
PHILETUS
(beloved) was possibly a disciple of Hymenaeus, with whom he is associated in (2 Timothy 2:17) and who is named without him in an earlier epistle. (1 Timothy 1:20) (A.D. 68-64) They appear to have been persons who believed the Scripture of the Old Testament, but misinterpreted them, allegorizing away the doctrine of the resurrection and resolving it all into figure and metaphor. The delivering over unto Satan. seems to have been a form of excommunication declaring the person reduced to the state of a heathen; and in the apostolic age it was accompanied with supernatural or miraculous effects upon the bodies of the persons so delivered.
HYMENAEUS
(belonging to marriage), the name of a person occurring twice in the correspondence between St. Paul and Timothy; the first time classed with Alexander, (1 Timothy 1:20) and the second time classed with Philetus. (2 Timothy 2:17,18) (A.D. 66-7.) He denied the true doctrine of the resurrection.
As one can see the name reflects the mythology (belonging to marriage)
Thus the name Hymenaeus
quote:
Can you really argue that Paul condemnation of Hymenaeus and Philetus extends to preterists?
I do not know, does it reflect to preterists, I believe we are speaking of fables and if they had the appearance of being persons who believed the Scripture of the Old Testament, but misinterpreted them.
This suggests to me that the Holy Spirit was not in them by allegorizing away the doctrine of the resurrection, and to boot, in the presence of the eyewitnesses of Christ himself who themselves are Jews.
According to Timothy
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 1/9/2006 2:27:38 PM
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jazzact13
Posts: 552
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
Sorry, but I don't use Lahaye and Ice as my guide for understanding prophecy.
Glad to see that this how you plan to 'win' the debate, sooner--basically ignore the evidence against your claims, and keep claiming your claims anyway. Do you work for the New York Times? Dan Rather? Howard Dean? or even Michael Moore?
I'm not playing that game with you, sooner, and I'm not letting you off the hook. If you have problems with my evidence, prove why. Simply giving implied insults is hardly becoming, nor is it sufficient.
So, lest you forget, here's what I posted.
quote:
Here are excerpts from the book 'The End Times Controversy'.
"'Engys' is used twice in the book of Revelation. In fact, the word 'engys' bookends Revelation in 1:3 and 22:10. The apostle writes, "Blessed in he who reads and those who hera the words of the prophecy, and heed the things that are written in it; for the time is 'near' (1:3). At the end of the book an angel speaks to John and says, "Do not seal up the words of ths prophecy of the book, for the time is 'near'...
"In the original Greek text, both Revelation 1:3 and 22:10 read nearly the same way. The verses do not say the kingdom of God (or heaven) is at hand, but 'the season (kairos) is sure'. Here in Revelation, why did John not use the Greek word 'kronos', which would have indicated a nearness in a certain chronological sense? Also, why in these verses did he not use the verb 'engyzo' (with the perfect sense), but instead, simply the noun 'engys'? John is simply focusing on the fact of the certainty about the season someday coming, and is not emphasizing the closeness of the events." (p. 293)
"This family of Greek words (engys, engizo) is a compound with a preposition and a noun meaning "in (the) hand". As an adverb, it carries the thought that something "is certain, it is a sure thing", "one has it in his hand". The 'Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament" Greek lexicaon gives the meaning of the related word 'engyos' as "standing as surety, guaranteeing... In other words, 'certainty' is one of the most compelling meanings for the word..." (p. 285)
Concerning your other point...
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Why didn't they deal with Rev 1:1?
They did.
quote:
"The internationally known lexicographers Liddell and Scott, in showing the descriptive use of 'tachos' with compound words, confirm that in most cases, the overwhelming meaninf of 'tachos' is "speediness of action"...
"Swiftness of motion is the compelling and most common meaning of 'tachos': "quickness, haste, speed". Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich (BAG) list the meaning of 'tachos' as "speed, quickness, swiftness, haste"...
"Many Greek scholars, both futurists and nonfuturists, agree that the idea of tachos here (Rev. 1:1) has to do with swiftness of execution when the prophetic events begin to take place...
"'En tachei' is translated by Lange "in swift succession", who adds that other scholars "correctly interpret it as referring to the rapidity of the course of the events prophesied"...
"The adverb 'tachu' is translated in almost very case as "quickly, suddenly, speedily, without delay". The meaning is "do not procrastinate, do not hesitate" (pp. 295, 296)
"The leading Greek lexicon in our day is Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich (BAG), which lists the following definitions for 'tachos': "speed, quickness, swiftness, haste" (p. 814 of the lexicon). The two times this noun appears in Revelation (1:1, 22:6), if is coupled with the preposition 'en', causeing this phrase to function grammatically as an adverb revealing to us the "sudden" manner in which these events will take place. They will occur "swiftly". The other word in the 'tachos' family used in Revelation as an adverb is 'tachus', which all six times occurs with the verb 'erchmomai', "to come" (2:16, 3:11, 11:14, 22:7,12, and 20). BAG gives as its meaning "quick, swift, speedy" (p. 814, lexicon). and specifically classifies all six uses in Revelation as meaning "without delay, quickly, at once" (p. 815, lexicon). Thus, contrary to the timing assumptions of preterists such as Demar and Gentry, who take every occurrence as a reference to timing, BAG (and the other lexicons also agree) recommends a translaton descriptive of the manner in which an event will happen." (pp. 103-104)
So, sooner, you think I'm wrong? Very well, here is your chance to prove it. Take your time, do your homework, and come prove me wrong.
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RE: THERE IS NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR PRETERISM - 1/9/2006 2:41:33 PM
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jazzact13
Posts: 552
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
This vision reminds me of the opening scene of that propaganda masterpiece Triumph of Will -- an airplane descending through the clouds.
To borrow the title from a Miles Davis tune...So What?
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To read the Bible biblically means to interpret it in terms of itself. What does God mean when He speaks of "coming in the clouds?" Well, what did He mean when He used that language before? When discussing prior historical events?
Well, let's see...
God came in the clouds to Sinai when he gave the law to Moses.
God came in clouds to Ezekial.
If I remember correctly, when God's presence came to the temple when Solomon dedicated it, one element was one or several clouds.
Did God come in other ways, too? That could be argued. I don't remember clouds when God visited Abraham about the judgment on Sodom. He came as fire in the bush to Moses. But at the least, it must be admitted that there were times when clouds, and not figurative ones either, we involved when God came near.
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To insist too fervantly on a "literal" reading of selected verses opens one up to deception.
So too can the figurative. I remember a tussle I had with a Christian Science follower some time ago, and how they took almost every biblical passage and made a figurative interpretation that somehow fit their preconceived notions was quite eye-openning.
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The United Pentecostals can "prove to you from the Bible" that there is no Trinity, after all!
I also remember someone making a pretty good case that the term 'godhead' may be a better name for what we call the Trinity. Usually I'll use both, because trinity is more common.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2006 3:31:39 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1662
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JoToP
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This suggests to me that the Holy Spirit was not in them by allegorizing away the doctrine of the resurrection, and to boot the presence of the eyewitnesses of Christ himself.
Speaking of allegorizing...
Greetings,
Perhaps you can assist me in understanding what is written below by Mr. Cook?
Earnest Hampden-Cook
"A FURTHER NOTE ON JOHN xxi. 21-23. - It is possible to see in this passage a suggestion that the "rapture" or "translation" of the saints at the coming of the Lord would not exempt their earthly bodies from death, but would mean the ascension of their spirits, their real and innermost selves, to Heaven in new and glorified bodies, resembling that in which the Lord Jesus ascended (Mark xvi. 19 ; Luke xxiv. 51 ; Acts i. 9 ; 1 Cor. xv.51, 52). In that case if John lived until the Parousia, and the possibility of his doing so is hinted at here by our Lord, and instead of remaining longer in this world, shared at once the glory and blessedness of the event, this would not necessarily mean that he escaped death, but that, through his union with the Saviour, death became to him the gate of eternal life."
Greetings,
I found the above from a pretrists point of view rather confusing.
When Jesus revealed himself to Mary at the tomb he said to her 17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' "
I am sure Jesus was not lying to Mary by saying that he had not yet but is ascending.
In any aspect there seems to be “a gap in time” being suggested here, in between appearing to Mary and appearing to his disciples, at a suggested place and time in the near future.
However, who witnessed this event in between those two revelations? and if no one witnessed it? How could Mr. Cook suggest “the saints at the coming of the Lord would not exempt their earthly bodies from death, but would mean the ascension of their spirits, their real and innermost selves, to Heaven in new and glorified bodies, resembling that in which the Lord Jesus ascended”
It is quite clear that in -between the time Jesus had said this to Mary …Jesus had ascended, or why would he say “But” go to my brethren and say to them '””I am ascending”” to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' ". And therefore appoint a place to meet with them? No one witnessed that time in-between.
Acts 1:11
They (two men dressed in white) said, "Men of Galilee, why are you standing there looking at the sky? This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will return in the same way as you have seen him going into heaven."
Prior to this Jesus was “seen” by many, Jesus broke bread, and ate with many, and many touched him.
The revelation here is “This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will return in the same way as you have “seen him” going into heaven”
This is the redemption of the body, which as of yet is unfulfilled, Jesus finished it, Spiritually and Bodily.
This is what Paul is saying, the Spiritual and Bodily part is complete in Christ, there is no need to face death again because Jesus already fulfilled the Spirit and also the bodily ascension for a set time in the future.
“”In any aspect there seems to be “a gap in time” being suggested here between appearing to Mary and appearing to his disciples, at a suggested place and time in the near future.”” And a gap in time from the bodily ascension and the place of promise AKA Pentecost.
It is a full cycle, or a circle, there were two men (witnesses) dressed in white. (Acts 1:11)
1 Thess 4:16-18
For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will “come down” from heaven (acts 1:11), and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2006 3:32:27 PM
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FatherKnowsBest
Posts: 65
Joined: 9/10/2005
From: Sandpoint, ID
Status: offline
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Debbie,
I believe that Romans Ch.6 and 7 are speaking about the death that came about by the law. According to Paul, the law was the ministration of death (2 Cor. 3:7).
Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
Ro 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
We don’t have the experience of being under the law, but according to Paul it brought about condemnation and a certain nature of death. Those who came to Christ from under the law had to undergo a complete paradigm shift. They were in the process of dying to the thing that once held them.
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Ro 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
Ro 7:10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
Ro 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
It is clear from Paul’s perspective that deliverance from the law had a certain aspect of resurrection. Even in the chapter of full mention concerning the resurrection, Paul said:
1co 15:55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"
1co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
To Paul it seems clear that the end of the law would take away the strength of sin, and the end of sin would take away the sting of death. Now instead of arguing that this can’t be fulfilled since there is still a lot of sin and death in the world, I think it is best to look at it from a covenantal perspective. Also the delivering of those from Hades was the resurrection of the dead. One of the aspects of Christ’s resurrection is that His soul was not left in Hades.
Ac 2:31 he foreseeing [this] spake of the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he left unto Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Paul spoke of a future resurrection in the context of these Roman passages. Just as they were united in the likeness of His death so they would be united in the likeness of His resurrection. But we know that they did not die on the cross or undergo any of the physical pain Christ underwent on the cross.
Ro 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Now with all this said, I admit that there is an aspect of spiritual resurrection that was occurring before 70AD. I am convinced that what Jesus said concerning those who believe in Him never tasting death was valid for that time. I don’t believe the deposit of the Holy Spirit that guaranteed their inheritance left them upon physical death, but continued with them and kept them from Hades.
I also see certain time passages as requiring the resurrection of the dead to have already occurred, as in Daniel Ch. 12 which I already explained on my first post of this thread. Along with that is Jesus statement in Matt. 16:27,28. Also something Paul said in the book of Acts is suggestive of a soon to take place resurrection.
Ac 24:15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;
This is from Young’s Literal Translation. The “about to be” speaks of a soon to happen resurrection.
Another point is the case with Hymenaeus and Philetus. One would think that Paul would have stated how foolish it was for them to say that the resurrection was past due to the fact that the bones of the dead were still in the tombs, and the living had not received their glorified bodies yet. This is usually the first thing pointed out when one says that the resurrection is past in our time.
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RE: Preterism vs. Futurism - One Stop Thread - 1/9/2006 3:57:38 PM
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jazzact13
Posts: 552
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
And you will see that the times you have mentioned Jazz were judgment.
I don't see that, bygrace. How can God giving the law on Sinai be considered judgment? Or what Ezekial experienced? Or God leading the Isr | | |
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