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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 8:11:59 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
If you will re read my post I said that Simon saw(visible) something, I did not say he saw speaking in tongues....I did insinuate it. I threw that out there to think about. Also Paul, it does not say when he spoke in tongues, but he said he did.
My main point is in Acts 2, 10, 19 when tongues is mentioned...ALL spoke in tongues! It does not say some received and some did not.
When Paul says I desire that everyone speak in tongues....Is like me saying I desire everyone would go to heaven. Everyone can go to heaven, but by choice they either reject the gospel or do not understand it.
Why would God give tongues to build oneself up and not others?
When it ask the question do all speak in tongues....this is speaking of the ministry in the church. I speak in tongues, but I do not speak in church for interpretation....this(ministry) is not what I am called to do.
I do not take great exception with what you say.
Personally I do think that all who are Baptized in the Holy Spirit can speak in tongues, but when doing apologetics I just cannot assume and support that with precise Scripture.
I know many folks whom I throroughly believe have been baptized in the Holy Spirit but do not pray in tongues, why; I am not for sure, but probably something to do with prior teachings.
And Since Scripture teaches in 1 Cor 14 that one can allow or not allow the Spirit to speak in tongues through them, then the speaking of tongues can be suppressed by the speaker if they so choose (for what ever reason).
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 8:36:45 AM
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awaken
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I can relate to what you are saying. I was saved for years before I understood the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. It was out of lack of knowledge, I was taught that they no longer exist...so I guess I was one of those that suppressed it.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/24/2008 1:24:14 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
I can relate to what you are saying. I was saved for years before I understood the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. It was out of lack of knowledge, I was taught that they no longer exist...so I guess I was one of those that suppressed it.
Well Praise God you do not anymore!
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 7:37:17 AM
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TJO5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
Thank you for that lesson in Greek...it makes more sense the way you put it. I wish we had a thread where someone taught Greek!
It would probably be too complex.
It would be nice to have a thread where Greek (and Hebrew) passages of scripture were discussed ,with explanations of why /or why not certain interpretations are possible .
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 8:53:22 AM
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TJO5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
I must have misunderstood your Greek lesson...I thought you meant that Paul desires all to speak in tongues.
I see the tongues used in different ways.
1 Cor. 14:4 is used for personal edification.
1 Cor. 14:5 for interpretation
Rom. 8:26- deep intercession( I know some do not believe this is tongues)
1 Cor. 14:22 sign to the unbelievers (this happen on the day of Pentecost)
There seems to be different rules for different operations or manifestations of tongues. I see that the word diversities/divers means different flows/manifestations of tongues. 1 Cor. 12:10; 28.
I think you have the gist of it- diversities.
Tongues,as far as I can see,can be manifested in the three ways you describe.There is one gift of tongues,different operations. Paul's desire is that everyone could speak in tongues,but you notice at that point he would rather have them prophesy- because at that point in his discourse he was talking about the tongues which operation edified the one speaking only. Immediately after that however he mentions the second operation-tongues with interpretation, which he goes on to tell us is an acceptable form of edification for the church.
Paul doesn't really speak about tongues which are understood by the hearers automatically,but it would appear that an operation like that would not need much in the way of instruction.
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands [him;] however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies [is] greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
In looking at tongues in 1 Cor. 12:28- 31 ,which many use to show that not all can speak in tongues, it would seem more likely that Paul was specifically talking about the second type of operation mentioned above- tongues which require interpretation.
28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 [Are] all apostles? [Are] all prophets? [Are] all teachers? [Are] all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.
I come to this conclusion from looking at the verse in the context started at verse 28- God has appointed in the church .
Contrasting the church with the body in general (which Paul was speaking about in the verses just prior to 28) we can see that Paul is listing those ministries which edify the church,or EKKLESIA- which is understood as the assembly.
When we look at the tongues in this context we know that not all,even of those who speak in tongues for their own edification, ever speak in a tongue in the assembly which would require an interpretation.
Hopefully the distinction is apparent.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 9:39:21 AM
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TJO5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
Why would God give tongues to build oneself up and not others?
I think God gives us tongues for both purposes.
My experience with tongues has been that I can pray in tongues -which I usually do sort of quietly until I have a prayer concern in my understanding which I then bring forth-and switch back to tongues until something else comes to my understanding.
Tongues which require interpretation are slightly different to me- there is a feeling in my spirit (a sort of pressure of knowing that I should speak aloud)-very hard to explain what it feels like- but I feel like I have something contained which is too much to hold on to - the same thing with prophesying.
I believe that the ability to speak in a tongue which requires interpretation comes from a desire to do so. Paul tells us to covet earnestly the best gifts,and a desire to edify the assembly by a tongue and interpretation (or to prophesy)is something that we can pray and ask for.
The only stumbling block we have between desire and operation is our soulish minds. We have the ability to suppress the very thing we desire because we want to completely comprehend it first instead of speaking forth in faith and letting go (i.e., prophesying is not for the speaker to understand-but the hearer;more valid words are lost when the speaker starts adding their own understanding to the simple word which they were supposed to give)
quote:
When it ask the question do all speak in tongues....this is speaking of the ministry in the church. I speak in tongues, but I do not speak in church for interpretation....this(ministry) is not what I am called to do.
I posted about this very thing before seeing your post.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 7/26/2008 12:08:04 PM
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awaken
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TJ05,
I believe we see it the same way....and also experienced it the same.
When I tried to see that all operations of tongues were the same.. the scriptures seem to contradict. But when they are put in context of the scriptures, they make more sense to me. You seem to have explained it better than I could have.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 3:33:22 PM
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awaken
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Does anyone believe that our spirit has a tongue, eyes, fingers etc?
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 11:26:57 PM
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TJO5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
TJ05,
I believe we see it the same way....and also experienced it the same.
When I tried to see that all operations of tongues were the same.. the scriptures seem to contradict. But when they are put in context of the scriptures, they make more sense to me. You seem to have explained it better than I could have.
I think that is the greatest thing about the face value(literal) hermeneutic.
All scripture must be taken at face value unless it is clearly symbolic.
That way if you arrive at a doctrine that cannot take into account every scripture that deals with a certain subject you know you have a false doctrine.
It makes you study harder to be certain your doctrine is correct.
The major problem with most doctrines about tongues is that false doctrine that all tongues are the same- they clearly aren't. Once you recognize that it is relatively easy to separate them.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 8/5/2008 11:33:38 PM
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TJO5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: awaken
Does anyone believe that our spirit has a tongue, eyes, fingers etc?
From a scriptural standpoint it would be very hard to determine that as there are very few scriptures which ascribe human characteristics to a spirit,whether it be a man's spirit or the Holy Spirit.
1 Kings 22:21 - stood - 2 Chr. 18:20
Ezek. 8:3 -hand
Mark 9:26 - spirit cried
Acts 8:29,10:19,11:12 - the Spirit said
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 12:05:16 AM
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awaken
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In Luke 16:19-31 it speaks of the rich man seeing, he has a tongue, he has a mind etc. This is after death, before the resurrected body. So this is speaking of a spirit that has these things.
If our spirit has a tongue, how does it speak........could this have anything to do with speaking in tongues?
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 8/6/2008 10:38:43 AM
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awaken
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I was asked this quetion and then later given this scripture Luke 16:19-31...It is about the rich man and Lazarus. After death they are in the spirit (no physical body)...it speaks of the rich man seeing, feeling, he wants lazarus to take his finger to touch his tongue with water, he is also told to remember...so this says our spirit has a mind.
It seems like our spirit is another body form (not physical) that has the same features as our physical. So if we are to live by the Spirit....we need to see spiritual, feel spiritual, hear spiritual, pray(tongues) spiritual.
It speaks of the man not in paradise, as I understand it no one is born of the Holy Spirit until after Jesus died on the cross. Salvation was by faith in Jesus to come. If our spirit is reborn with the nature of God, baptized(empowered) by the Holy Spirit....This is how we should live now by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. We need to learn to hear, see, feel and do the things of the spirit through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is our spiritual man that needs to react instead of our physical(flesh) body.
Every one thinks I see things weird but I am trying to understand how we walk and pray by the spirit and this was brought to my attention. Just want to see if any one had any insight to this.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 8/7/2008 10:21:08 PM
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TJO5
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quote:
awaken,
I was asked this quetion and then later given this scripture Luke 16:19-31...It is about the rich man and Lazarus. After death they are in the spirit (no physical body)...it speaks of the rich man seeing, feeling, he wants lazarus to take his finger to touch his tongue with water, he is also told to remember...so this says our spirit has a mind.
It seems like our spirit is another body form (not physical) that has the same features as our physical. So if we are to live by the Spirit....we need to see spiritual, feel spiritual, hear spiritual, pray(tongues) spiritual.
It is difficult to determine with certainty about the attributes of our spirit as I pointed out the scriptures which ascribe attributes-but you must also take into consideration the fact that,with the timing of the scripture in Luke you reference ,the spirits of all who died in the flesh were dead beforehand.
A couple of scriptures I posted here for you show us that it is the souls of men that are in waiting for a final judgement day.Now it all depends on your belief in the composition of the human being on what makes up the soul.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Evidence that it is the spirit that is in waiting can be found in only this scripture as far as I could find-unless you hold the view that the spirit is part of the soul of man-in which case it could muddy up any understanding of what attributes the spirit has.
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
In my viewpoint however I believe that man is a spirit,soul,and body. Our spirit doesn't need a tongue,mouth mind or anything like that because we already possess these things apart from the spirit. In someone who is not born again their spirit is dead because of sin,so their soul'which comprise the mind,is in control of their actions-which the body performs;but in the born again christian,our spirit is alive and is in charge over the soul (but only so far as we build ourselves up in the spirit by study of the Word,so that the spirit is able to subdue the natural inclinations of our minds- which had always been in charge before),and the actions then performed in the flesh originated in the spirit.
This is a very complex subject ,which probably has it's own thread-but insofar as it relates to speaking in tongues I believe the decision to do so originates in our spirit-which has already placed the soul in agreement that speaking in tongues is a valid experience in a christian,and the actual speaking takes place with our fleshly tongue.
We speak as the spirit gives utterance.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 9/29/2008 1:49:00 PM
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raivyne
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I made a topic in another forum for this before I found this thread... anyway here goes (meanwhile i'll try to pick through this thread):
I grew up going to Baptist churches but I never felt "right" there. there were some things i didn't not agree with that baptists believe.
Now I go to a Pentecostal church and I really enjoy it. I'm not at all uncomfortable with the people around me jumping or speaking in tongues. In fact I've come to respect and admire that outward display.
Overall I'm an inward person. I'm very introverted in general. I don't mind speaking up in sunday school and expounding my thoughts about the lesson and scriptures, but I don't speak much outside of that. I've never spoken in tongues and I get the impression that I should have by now. I don't know if I'm open to that or if the Holy Spirit would even use me in that way. I always thought that the spiritual gifts vary from person to person (or at least the degrees of them vary greatly in each person).
Whilst standing up front last night one of the elder ladies of the church was trying to get me to speak. Just normal speech and saying how sometimes that's all that's needed for the Holy Ghost to show. I just don't speak much out loud when I pray. I do sing praise and worship outloud... I love to do that.
I just wonder if maybe I'm preventing the Holy Ghost from entering me... dunno how to phrase my question really. If some Church of God folks could help enlighten me it would be great! I plan to talk to my pastor about this as well.
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 7:40:43 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
I go to a Pentecostal church and I really enjoy it.
in a pentecostal church, speaking in tongues is a salvation issue.
talking to the pastor about this is a good idea.
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 7:59:08 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
in a pentecostal church, speaking in tongues is a salvation issue.
This is a false assertion.
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love.ben
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 8:00:32 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
in a pentecostal church, speaking in tongues is a salvation issue.
This is a false assertion.
I will tell that to my pastor
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 9:04:44 PM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
in a pentecostal church, speaking in tongues is a salvation issue.
This is a false assertion.
I will tell that to my pastor
Let me make clear what I was saying. . .
Pentecostal churches do NOT as a whole, make that claim. Specific ones, perhaps, but your blanket statement is misguided.
And tongues is NOT a salvation issue, and those Pentecostal churches that side with that are wrong.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 7:00:19 AM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Let me make clear what I was saying. . .
sometimes it looks like you are more interested in telling someone they are wrong than actually discussing something.
my advice to her was "talk to the pastor"......... whether it is important in that church or not, I know from experience that there are (most likely) members of the congregation who might put the "tongues pressure" on her, and believe with all of their heart "......with evidence of tongues" is the only real assurance.
if she talks to the pastor, she will eliminate the guess work, will know the churches stance, and she can be informed.
1Co 14:5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but.....
(if everyone spoke in tongues it wouldn't be a wish)
1Co 14:18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all
(me too)
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 7:57:01 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Let me make clear what I was saying. . .
Pentecostal churches do NOT as a whole, make that claim. Specific ones, perhaps, but your blanket statement is misguided.
And tongues is NOT a salvation issue, and those Pentecostal churches that side with that are wrong.
Absolutely correct.
Tongues being necessary for salvation is doctrine in a very minute part of folks that call themselves Pentecostal (folks that believe in the gifts that fell on the day of Pentecost).
Those that believe that way are for the most part 'Oneness" believers (non-Trinitarian) and are considered a cult by most of Christiandom.
Those that believe tongues are necessary for salvation are just as far from the truth of Scripture as those who believe that tongues are of the devil.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 2:13:42 PM
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raivyne
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I don't believe that my pastor falls into the line of thinking that tongues is synonymous with salvation.
quote:
ORIGINAL rcjames
Personally I do think that all who are Baptized in the Holy Spirit can speak in tongues, but when doing apologetics I just cannot assume and support that with precise Scripture.
I know many folks whom I throroughly believe have been baptized in the Holy Spirit but do not pray in tongues, why; I am not for sure, but probably something to do with prior teachings.
And Since Scripture teaches in 1 Cor 14 that one can allow or not allow the Spirit to speak in tongues through them, then the speaking of tongues can be suppressed by the speaker if they so choose (for what ever reason).
I think there is a lot of truth to this. I was raised in a baptist church. Tongues were only for the archbishops (IIRC). any person outside of that speaking in tongues were either faking or under the influence of the enemy.
Occasionally, I have heard a couple of strange words in my head... but do not utter them. They sound similar to words I have heard from the mouths of others (though not exactly) when they were speaking tongues. Its not like I think to myself "i should say this because so and so said something just like this last week!" its more like I see the words and I think "did I conjure that up because of something I heard before?"
Anyway, I think I cry instead of speak in tongues (maybe I would do both if I were more open). I am not a crier... at all. I refrain from crying (esp. in public) as much as possible. However when I'm worshiping I'm often overcome with tears (and not because I'm sad). much of the time I don't even realize I've shed them until after. Does that make sense to anyone? Could that be evidence of the Holy Spirit as well?
I keep forgetting to talk to my pastor (I'm like the absent minded professor really)... but I will make it a point to do so (i.e. put it on my cell phone calander).
~~~
Also, 1love1God1way - You seem to be a very direct, to the point, person. So, am I! My motives are often misinterpreted as well.  Which, sometimes I could do a better job of preventing... LOL
I try not to make assumptions about the motives of others and I have never got the impression the other poster did about your posts. Just thought I'd say so.
< Message edited by raivyne -- 10/8/2008 2:20:44 PM >
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 3:05:46 PM
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1love1God1way
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Raivyne,
Yes. Tone is hard to convey via short text responses. I am working hard to sound more gentle. My heart is not bitter, but looking back, I can see how it appears that my words are. Thankfully, I got people in my life that call me out when I am too harsh!
blessings,
.ben
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Gift of Tongues - One Stop Thread - 10/8/2008 5:48:16 PM
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disciplelife
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
Anyway, I think I cry instead of speak in tongues (maybe I would do both if I were more open). I am not a crier... at all. I refrain from crying (esp. in public) as much as possible. However when I'm worshiping I'm often overcome with tears (and not because I'm sad). much of the time I don't even realize I've shed them until after. Does that make sense to anyone? Could that be evidence of the Holy Spirit as well?
It makes perfect sense. Despite the guards that we put up to face the world, inside we are different.
"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh". (Ezekiel 36:25-27)
A God-fearing, Bible-believing, true, washed-in-the-blood-of-Jesus Christian has a different heart. And certainly, that feeling can only be due to that heart being touched by the Holy Spirit. If you think you sensed the Holy Spirit, or wonder if it might have been... it probably was.
_____________________________
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
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