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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/3/2006 2:16:33 PM
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1lightseeker
Posts: 504
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
O.k. so let me see if I understand this correctly. In order for someone to be saved, or to stay on the path to salvation they must....
deny themselves
crucify themselves daily
they must feed the poor
clothe strangers, orphans and widows
and if they don't do these things they will be sent to Hell?
What else must one do to be saved or stay on the path of salvation?
they must also...
stay in His presense
sell all that they have
Isn't this what Jesus says in the Gospels?
quote:
If one does all these things then they will have acheived eternal life? If they keep on doing all these things then they will stay on the path to salvation? How often must one do these things? Everyday, once in awhile?
How does one crucify ones self daily and how will they know if they've crucifed themselves sufficiently enough to rate going to Heaven? Sell all that one has? Have you sold ALL that you have?
Why did Jesus say so then? I don't think it's about legalistic adherance to a set of rules. It's about being obedient, submissive, and sold out for Jesus. We can't love anything more than Him. If He tells us to give something up, we should. It depends on if our possessions have become an idol for us or if we are using them to further His kingdom. But we should always try to help the poor. I rely on the spiritual guidance of the church to help me not to go too far in either direction.
quote:
I wasn't picking on any one particular religion. It doens't matter to me what religion it is, if it preaches that salvation isn't by grace through faith apart from works, then it ain't gospel. And I don't care what religion says otherwise.
If that's "mean spirited", oh, well.
I don't think this post is "mean spirited", it was more the tone in the post I was addressing which wasn't yours. And I'm not the judge of the universe so who cares, like you said. I believe the verses about grace are to keep our focus on where the power comes from to be a Christian. I think the verses about works (James, and the Gospels) are to keep us from taking God's grace for granted, and to help us achieve greater intimacy with Him.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/3/2006 5:14:23 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
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bygraceiamsaved,
quote:
Obedience is the result of our salvation, not the cause. As for the verses posted, I would ask why do you post just part of a verse cassian? Look at the entire chapter and other chapters. Reconcile the verses we have given with the verses you have given as both are true. If you can't reconcile them, then your interpretation of them is wrong as the Bible cannot and does not contradict itself. Because what you state above is incorrect. It is neither the result of faith, nor the cause of, but evidence of faith. If one does not have evidence one no longer has faith. Dead faith, faithlessness, unbelief cannot mean belief, faithful and a living faith. That is where you are contradicting scripture. To simply say that we are saved through faith, I have no objection as scripture does not either. But having faith once does not in any shape or form guarantee that we always shall have faith. All the texts to the contrary and all the verses which you seem to be implying that I am omitting, are the very same ones that deny the existance of OSAS.
You, nor anyone else has yet explained those verses I listed a few posts ago, which actually reference believers, but by your view that is totally impossible. Every single one is diametrically opposed to your view, unless, and this is what I wanted someone to explain, what group do they apply to in your view, if not believers?
The point of simply quoting scripture is absolutely meaningless. If one takes them out of context and/or assigns a supposition to them, such as OSAS, there will always be a contradiction. You have a massive one and no one can explain it.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/3/2006 5:29:17 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
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Gracebro,
You have quoted a lot of scripture that does not address either your possition, nor the position that I gave.
quote:
Holy
"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:10
Blameless
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." Ephesians 1:4
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Romans 8:1
Pure
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:7
Forgiven
"I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name." 1 John 2:12
Set Apart From Sinners (Sanctified)
"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 6:11
Exalted Above the Heavens
"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus," Ephesians 2:6
Perfect Forever
"For by that one offering he perfected forever all those whom he is making holy." Hebrews 10:14
None of these verses supports or verifies that one is a believer guaranteed upon a one-time, mental ascent of faith. Nor does it support anything to the contrary. It simply states what a believer has IN Christ.
But we know from other scriptures that a beleiver does not always remain a believer. One can depart, one can be led astray, will not endure to the end, become faithless, or in other words, is no longer IN Christ. To say that a believer has this or that, or that a particular text says that those that believe shall inherit eternal life does not support nor deny either view. They are simply statements of fact for those who believe. But the Biblical fact is, that we do not necessarily continue to believe or have faith.
If you can see this, then go back to the verses I quoted back to an earlier response to your text quoting when you did the same thing. Explain to me based on your view, to whom those texts are directed?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/3/2006 8:18:38 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
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justifiedbyfaith,
quote:
This is what it is about...>If you keep the faith.
Precisely.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/3/2006 10:00:59 PM
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gracewalk
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Gracebro.. I was not going to post again but you talked to me so i did not want to leave you hanging out there.. I have a few blocked.. But I think like Rush, I am at the point I know what Dems are going to say before they say it. Or even if their post are blocked to me.
You and Rileykins are right. between you, myself, and rileykins I have not seen one person take those verses posted and dispute them. Now if they are going to be critical of what we post they need to address those verses, not constantly ignore them. And now we drag progressive sanctification, another control mechanism made popular in the 80's to keep you in a mode of perfecting your self. That teaching with its practical and positional nonsense is so willingly accepted. Well if some radio teacher says so it must be so I guess.
I think of a sci fi show like I am watching this evening where an outside force has been influencing a people and they finally discover it. But they have been so steeped in what they knew they won't let go of it. The keep defending it as if it were still the reality. They still think if they are good they will go to heaven. They insist you better follow the same path, after all they have to.
Christ is the end of law.. is biblical myth to them is all I can figure.. of course they don't keep all the law.. just the ones church has told them to.. which in turn they come here and tell us to. Frankly I am worn out reading what someones church believes. If I wanted to hear their pastor I would go to their church.
perhaps a new structure could be made hear where all the Orthodox have their own thread section, The Romans who they think have it al wrong could have theirs, then the evangelicals could have theirs and the Reformed theirs. This co mingling of such diverse church teaching reminds of when I was kid and our church disliked the baptist down the street, they in turn disliked us.. I think. We did not know why.. the best we could no was parrot what our own church teaches.. This is like being at an auto show with salesmen from all the major brands trying to sell us the best product made, meanwhile what they drive home is another make.. but on the auditorium floor they are so ready to tell us what we must be driving.
I will stand firm on what the scriptures have revealed to me over the years.. If you can mentally shed what your church has taught you when you sit down with the word, the promise of the Spirit to reveal to you what it means I am convinced will happen. And gracebro, rileykins.. it is apparent to me you have done your home work.. I don't hear any church teaching coming through your post.. so i thought it a good idea to hand out a little praise in your regard.
later
_____________________________
Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GraceRest/
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/3/2006 11:17:49 PM
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GraceBro
Posts: 295
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gracewalk
I will stand firm on what the scriptures have revealed to me over the years.. If you can mentally shed what your church has taught you when you sit down with the word, the promise of the Spirit to reveal to you what it means I am convinced will happen. And gracebro, rileykins.. it is apparent to me you have done your home work.. I don't hear any church teaching coming through your post.. so i thought it a good idea to hand out a little praise in your regard.
Amen, gracewalk! And thank you for your kind words and your comments as a whole. I was finished posting, but just wanted you to know you are appreciated. I know we are to be longsuffering, but I think that is with someone seeking the truth, but is struggling to find it. I don't believe it is to try, ad nauseum, to convince those set in their ways. Whether it's the Mosaic Law, denominational dogma, christian fads like the Prayer of Jabez, the Purpose Driven Life or something we make up ourselves, it is all filthy rags in the eyes of God. When we add to the Gospel of Grace we take away from it. A little leaven spoils the loaf. A lot of it closes the Bakery!!! 
Okay, now I am finished.... Grace and Peace
< Message edited by GraceBro -- 3/3/2006 11:21:28 PM >
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2006 12:16:22 AM
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cassian
Posts: 162
Joined: 9/5/2005
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Dandirom, and to all,
quote:
The vine is not the Church but Christ himself. So in effect, you're saying that Christ allows someone to be part of Himself, the True Vine, even when that person didn't really accept Him. And He is telling us to remain in Him because if we don't remain we will be cut off - how can you be told to remain if you never belonged in the first place?
I don't think you will get an answer, Dandirom. The standard OSAS view does not allow for it. It is and always will be an unaswered contradiction.
quote:
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." 1 Peter 1:3-5
Here is just another among many that OSAS proponents will use supposedly to support OSAS. But they can never show where the OSAS is in this verse. All I see is that a person is born, begotten, a new birth which is referencing baptism into a hope, not concrete reality in this life, but hope through the resurrection of Christ into an inheritance...again not a concrete fixed status in this life, but again a hope for the future. The Gift waiting will never perish, fade or spoil, it is kept in heaven for us, and what follows is very key to the whole verse....WHO THROUGH FAITH are shielded by God's power.. when one believes in a single moment,.... no, until the coming of the salvation to be revealed in the last time. Where does it say it came in a one-time mental ascent, maybe 80 years before that. As almost all to a person, have also stated, that one is saved by faith, not through faith. Thus one can never lose faith. The Holy Spirit just will not let you go. If you had faith at any time, you were immediately locked into salvation, no matter what you did after that. You may lose rewards but not salvation. Again, no one has ever explained how they determine all that from this verse and many like it.
When we have such verses as:..the branch being cut off from the vine due to unbelief. lack of faith, disobedience.
Texts such as:1 Timothy 3:6 - not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
This novice is a new believer, a babe in Christ. The context is that he should not be appointed to an office yet, because of his lack of faith maturity. But a believer nonetheless. One would need to assume here that falling into condemnation of the devil does not mean he is not going to be saved. For we know from the OSAS doctrine that this believer can never fall. Or we can assume that the simple faith of the devil got himself saved as well. What other option can there be?
quote:
1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. I don't think anyone can say this is not plain English. Even the Greek says it forthright. Believers, those of faith, will depart from the faith. Can anyone please explain how OSAS is not an outright contradiction to this verse? Or looking to the text I used above of I Pet 1:5, it should read, that we are kept through our unbelief, lack of faith, until the coming of salvation.
quote:
1 Timothy 5:12 - Having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith Again, could someone please explain how condemnation means salvation. It says that those that do not believe are already condemned. Same word, or do we assume that those that don't ever believe are also saved because they have been condenmned. By the way, who is doing the casting off...God or man? Does the Holy Spirit really compel a man, does He lock you into salvation, or can man reject the presence and work of the Holy Spirit in his life. This verse clearly says yes.
Many will argue that these verses do not speak of salvation. That would be correct. But salvation comes in two ways, both using faith. We are justified by faith, and saved through faith. So, if one does not have faith, is one still justified? If not justified, then are we still being saved through faith?
Does unbelief, or faithlessness ever mean faithful, and believing. Are there any verses that will justify this contradiction and thus support OSAS?
Here is still another which has not been answered:
Heb 3:12 - Beware brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the Living God! But exhort one another daily while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." Ah, but this is idle babbling. Believers just cannot fall away. There must be some other kind of person being referenced here as departing from the Living God. God holds you, will not ever leave you!! Unless someone can explain this, I see it as a massive contradiction to the OSAS view. It apparently is not God holding man after all. It is all up to man to make sure of his salvation.
Hebrews 4:14 - Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. Does this verse say the Holy Spirit is holding us fast? Is God responsible for our salvation or are we? If God, then on what will we be judged?
These are just the tip of the iceberg on verses that contradict the view of OSAS. No one has given a single verse that overturns these and many others.
Are there any here that can answer these questions regarding the OSAS view. After all, it has been around for a few years.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2006 10:56:02 AM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
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This is the answer to all of the above: Phil. 1:9 "He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ."
"We are dependent on God, not only for redemption itself but for our faith in the Redeemer; not only for the gift of His Son but for the Holy Ghost for our conversion."
Edwards in a public lecture in Boston July 8, 1731
JONATHAN EDWARDS
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2006 4:18:26 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
Joined: 9/5/2005
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bygraceiamsaved,
quote:
This is the answer to all of the above: Phil. 1:9 "He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ."
Phil 1:6 is the text you mean. But once again, this does not answer the question. These are believers that are being referenced. If believers, then it is the beleivers that must work with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit or He being God here in this verse does not complete anything against your will.
This balances with the first texts I had posted of I Pet 1:5. God works through our faith. The power of God is through faith. It is never through unbelief, or faithlessness. We also know from the other texts that beleivers do fall, do not complete the race, do not endure.
What you have here is a very concrete promise on the part of God relative to His promise from His side of the relationship. He is not at all like us, who waver, lose faith, change our minds, and for whatever reason, are no longer IN Christ, IN ORDER THAT HE MAY COMPLETE THE WORK.
This also aligns with 2 Timothy 1:12 - ... He is able to keep what I have committed To Him until that Day. Does it say God commits man's will and desire to God, or does it say that man commits his will and desire, faith to God. If he does, then God is faithful to finish and is able to complete the good work that He began.
As well as....""Now unto him that is able TO KEEP YOU from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy," Jude 24" He is able and willing but are you. Are you going to commit all of yourself to Him, so that he can keep you from falling. But if you desire to reject Him, to permit the flesh to rule your life again, then He also no longer will work with you.
Do you have another text that outright claims that a believer upon a once-in a point of time believes is locked into salvation? It must refute all those texts that clearly state that a believer can and does fall away. In lieu of that, what group could these verses be addressing if not believers?
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2006 8:49:44 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
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quote:
Phil 1:6 is the text you mean. But once again, this does not answer the question. These are believers that are being referenced. If believers, then it is the beleivers that must work with the Holy Spirit.
No, that is not true. This is why the rest of your interpretation of the scriptures you have given are wrong as well. In fact you have just single handedly rewritten the Bible.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2006 10:00:11 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11755
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
A friendly reminder from the Range of Doctrines for this site:
quote:
6. Eternal Security/Loss of Salvation
Range of views:
An astonishing number of North American Christians are unaware how many other conservative Bible believing North American Christians differ with them on this issue. Few differing doctrinal positions are viewed as so evidently true to members of each side, or so essential to a correct understanding of the Gospel. While Christians books, and radio and TV programs are disproportionally representative of the "eternal security" position, millions of members of Pentecostal, Wesleyan (Methodist, Nazarene, Wesleyan) and Mennonite denominations do not subscribe to the doctrine of eternal security.
For the amount of energy invested in debating this issue, it seems to make very little practical difference in the lives of the vast majority of true Christians in both camps. Those believing in "eternal security" do not have a casual attitude toward sin, and are no less committed to a lifestyle of obedience. Those not believing in "eternal security" do not believe that salvation is easily or frequently "lost", or live in constant fear of damnation. Examples that appear to disprove these statements can be found in both camps and prove nothing.
Both positions have, for several hundred years, pitted their most brilliant Bible scholars at each other, presenting the proof texts and arguments which "obviously prove" their positions; both sides remain unconvinced. Remaining unconvinced in the face of alleged proof texts by members of either side is not evidence of either their stupidity or disbelief in Scripture. For some reason, the Holy Spirit chose not to so inspire the Bible that it is unequivocally clear to all true Christians which of these positions is correct.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2006 11:27:43 PM
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walterquez
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I understand there are differences of opinions within the last few hundred years. The question is why? What about the Church that has been in existence for about 2000 years? Were they wrong? The teachings of predestination as well as those of Arminius were foreign to the early Church. I believe we need to be careful with what we believe today with teachings that has only be around for a few hundred years.
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2006 12:10:33 AM
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cassian
Posts: 162
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bygraceiamsaved,
quote:
No, that is not true. This is why the rest of your interpretation of the scriptures you have given are wrong as well. In fact you have just single handedly rewritten the Bible.
Why is it not true? Why do you think I am rewriting scripture? It is plain English what it is saying.
How does Phil 1:6 indicate that a believer upon a single once in a point of time gives an ascent of faith that he is then locked into salvation. Please explain this theologically then, and how it does not contradict the rest of the NT.
Show how and why the texts I used do not contradict Phil 1:6.
Saying so, does not make it so.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2006 1:01:51 AM
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johnkw
Posts: 344
Joined: 11/27/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cassian
quote:
John 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. It is amazing that you even use this text. First, not many protestants if any actually believe what it says in the first place. Secondly, only believers, if they eat and drink unworthily, can eat and drink to their condemnation. I don't see any OSAS in using this verse. Unless, you believe that unbelievers who eat and drink unworthily, are eating and drinking to their condemnation.
The word you quote as 'condemnation', in 1 Cor. 11:29, is 'krima' or 'krina', which does not mean ultimate condemnation. To make it ultimate you put the prefix 'kata' in front: only then could you say that this verse is talking about losing eternal salvation. So 1 Cor. 11:29 says that those who eat the bread and drink the cup in an unworthy manner will be disciplined by God, but they're still saved.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2006 1:28:42 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
Joined: 9/5/2005
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johnkw,
quote:
The word you quote as 'condemnation', in 1 Cor. 11:29, is 'krima' or 'krina', which does not mean ultimate condemnation. To make it ultimate you put the prefix 'kata' in front: only then could you say that this verse is talking about losing eternal salvation. So 1 Cor. 11:29 says that those who eat the bread and drink the cup in an unworthy manner will be disciplined by God, but they're still saved.
That is correct. It adds further to the incorrect status of the believer and OSAS.
If one does not heed the discipline and continues to willingly partake in condemnation, then as the example shows, they died. This death is not part of the chastisement. The reason it is not final is that as long as man has breath, we can move between being believers, unbelievers, between salvation and condemnation. But death is final for both. We will know that our faith endured, or that we rebelled against God's chastisement, thus condemnation.
If salvation was final in this life, then condemnation would also be. Once an unbeleiver, always an unbeliever. I don't think you will find either stand anywhere in scripture. Our time is now whom we will serve. If we become lax, stray, the Holy Spirit will work to bring you back, including chastisement. But if we keep on rebelling, if we quench the Spirit, the Spirit will leave us to our choice and eventual condemnation, unless repentance is made.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2006 3:38:27 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
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So the purpose of Christ's death on the cross was? and again Phil. 1:6 "He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ". It is speaking of our salvation. God works from the inside out.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2006 7:17:07 PM
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cassian
Posts: 162
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bygraceiamsaved,
quote:
So the purpose of Christ's death on the cross was? and again Phil. 1:6 "He who began a good work in you is faithful to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ". It is speaking of our salvation. God works from the inside out.
His purpose was to make man right with God. To redeem, to justify, to reconcile man to God. Christ overcame the fall of man. He overcame the judgement of Adam. Released us from the curse to death and sin.
Having said that, the topic does not deal with the work of Christ. That Work is what Christ offers to man as a Gift. We either accept it, or reject it.
Man's walk is a free choice from beginning to end. Man willingly, desires to work with God and with the Holy Spirit in his life. God does not either compel man, nor hold man. God does not injure the independent will of man. God made man so that he could be free. But Adam, by his sin, put mankind into bondage to death and sin. Christ freed us so that we could once again enjoy union, communion with Him. That union is never forced at any time. Man is a free moral agent and only as long as man is willing, then God is also willing and able to work with man. God does not work with man when man turns from God.
That is precisely what all those texts are saying. IF we believe we have eternal life. But the Scriptures are very clear that a believer does not necessarily stay the course. We do and can depart from the first faith. We can depart and will not inherit the promise.
Again, Phil 1:6 has nothing to say about man's perspective in the relationship. It is ONLY speaking about Gods perspective which is that He is both willing and able, but only through our faith. If we do not have faith, IF we become faithless, God is no longer willing and able to work with us. Phil 1:6 must align with I Pet 1:5. as well as all the other texts that I posted much earlier.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2006 12:14:14 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 122
Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
I understand there are differences of opinions within the last few hundred years. The question is why? What about the Church that has been in existence for about 2000 years? Were they wrong? The teachings of predestination as well as those of Arminius were foreign to the early Church. I believe we need to be careful with what we believe today with teachings that has only be around for a few hundred years.
Yeah, cause you were really there 2000 years agao to confirm what they taught.  . Where do you guys come up with this stuff?
Any Johnny come lately can easily come on these forums "claiming" their Church did this and that. When in all reality, you can't prove it.
_____________________________
"My friend, there is danger of just wanting the information and knowledge from the Bible but failing to translate it into shoe leather, not letting it become part of our lives" - J Vernon Mcgee
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2006 12:20:39 AM
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walterquez
Posts: 1440
Joined: 4/12/2005
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History proves how long a particular church has been around. There is no need for you to be there 2000 years ago, so your sarcasm is moot.
And I agree that any Johnny come lately can claim their church is the one. And that was exactly my point. We need to be careful with new churches that has only been around for not too long. How can you trust them when they have no connection with the past. On the other hand, a church who has a long history, and especially with the Apostles have the evidences on their side in a court of law.
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St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2006 12:36:32 AM
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Saved34
Posts: 122
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
History proves how long a particular church has been around. There is no need for you to be there 2000 years ago, so your sarcasm is moot.
And I agree that any Johnny come lately can claim their church is the one. And that was exactly my point. We need to be careful with new churches that has only been around for not too long. How can you trust them when they have no connection with the past. On the other hand, a church who has a long history, and especially with the Apostles have the evidences on their side in a court of law.
The Church 'AGE" is over 2000 years old now. But I really hope you're not trying to push the EOC as "THE" Church. Facts remain, they can't even prove their history , or their Apostolic succession.
Salvation by Grace, through Faith has been the staple of the "TRUE" Church(invisible) from the begining. All the Epistles teach this, and All who have ever come to a saving knowledge of Christ has taught this. No matter what the time frame.
Unfortunately, you had Judaisers that even in the time of the Apostles, infiltrated the Church(local). And taught men, that unless they did this, or did that (in their case it was circumcission) they could not be saved. They used the same silly methods of claiming some kind of Authority from the Apostles to enforce their obvious flawed and heritical teachings. The Apostle Paul by inspiration of the Holy Spirit dealt with those cursed teachers effectively in the book of Galatians.
Unfortunately, the decendants of the Judaisers are alive and well in alot of these so called ancient denominations.
Now you have men basically calling God an Abortionist. For believers are Born Again.
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"My friend, there is danger of just wanting the information and knowledge from the Bible but failing to translate it into shoe leather, not letting it become part of our lives" - J Vernon Mcgee
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2006 11:13:32 AM
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Ps103
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RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2006 1:33:38 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
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My dog even responded. LOL
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"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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