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mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/4/2008 3:51:54 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
The Greek phrse John uses for "eternal life" literally means "life of the ages"," as opposed, I think we could say, to "life as people are living in these day."
The Secret Message of Jesus, p. 37
In a story told by Luke, Jesus has a conversation with a man identified as rich, young, and some sort of political officia (Luke 18:18-25). He asks Jesus how he can experience "eternal life"--again, not to be confused with "life after you die".
p. 39
So, do you think that McLaren's reinterpretations is what the Bible really says about eternal life? Consider the verses on this page.
http://classicbst.christianity.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=eternal+life§ion=8&version=str&language=en
quote:
Mt 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Joh 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
The contexts in some of those seems to point against McLaren's contention. Matthew 25:46 contrasts eternal life with everlasting punishment. John 12:25 makes hating life in this world a requisite for keeping it to eternal life.
Whether McLaren believes in life after death and Heaven is something I'm not sure about (though that he doesnt' believe in Hell is more certain). It seems he's wanting to enroll 'eternal life' into his concepts of social action and transformation.
Any other opinions? I would be especially interested in knowing the sources for his contention that the phrase translated "eternal life" actually means "life of the ages". I have not seen a source in the book.
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 4:27:07 PM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/4/2008 6:05:27 PM
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stephanos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Jazz,
I would say that McLaren is not "reinterpreting" scripture but rather he is interpreting it rightly. The Greek is quite clear in this and it is actually an interpretation of editors to make John say "eternal life" when it literally means what McLaren says.
Another way to put it would be that John is using a different phrase to say what the synoptics mean by when they say "Kingdom of God/Heaven." To be sure, those phrase are not about eternal life either (although many Christians today think it does).
In any event, McLaren believes in a life beyond the grave. What you are reading is a book that seeks to emphasize other aspects of the CHristian life - namely, life in the present infused by God which enables us to be God's "co-laborers" (as Paul puts it) to work for the Kingdom of God.
peace.
Clearly neither you nor McLaren know your Greek.
The words (transliterated...still cant figure out how to get the greek text to work on the forums...Mods/Admins can you help me out?) is Zoe Aionios. Which is literally life everlasting. Aionios represents a eternal amount of time. thus Zoe Aionios is Eternal Life.
McLaren is dead wrong on this.
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 6:13:26 PM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/4/2008 7:49:41 PM
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rcjames
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McLaren?
Is that guy still trying to be a minister? I figured he would be selling time share condos by now.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 9/6/2008 5:04:01 PM >
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/6/2008 4:22:01 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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To make things really fun, Strong's defines zoe as "vitality". So it's more than just being alive, it means being alive with "gusto". Just thought I would throw another kink in the hose.
Adam
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 9:16:37 AM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/6/2008 3:04:37 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
To make things really fun, Strong's defines zoe as "vitality". So it's more than just being alive, it means being alive with "gusto". Just thought I would throw another kink in the hose.
Adam
Yes, zoe does carry the idea of vitality, but in the sense that the subject is animate or alive. It doesn't refer to the quality of that life in any way. Also "Zoe" is not the word translated "eternal." Aionios is the adjective in the phrase "eternal life."
We should remember that how a word or phrase is understood (translated, interpreted) is largely determined by its context. McLaren's "life of the ages" simply ignores the context. He takes on verse, found in John 17, where Jesus says, "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent" and regardless of the context applies it's [alleged] meaning to every other passage where the phrase "eternal life" is found.
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 7:12:22 PM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/6/2008 9:18:31 PM
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mushhead
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Actually, eternal life is about both a future time and having life in God. We cannot make distinctions between the two as they go hand in hand, and we certainly cannot say that it does not invlove a future time or state.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 9/6/2008 9:25:35 PM >
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Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 9:23:23 PM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/6/2008 9:27:59 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
Actually, eternal life is about both a future time and having life in God. We cannot make distinctions between the two as they go hand in hand, and we certainly cannot say that it is not about a future time or state.
I agree. McLaren isn't saying it is NOT about a future time. He is correcting the error in most people's thinking who assume Jesus is ONLY talking about some future state. He isn't. No more than he is talking about some future state of being when he says "the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Yes, the future is part of this but the accent is on the life that begins with us today.
Can you provide a few names of people who teach it is only about a future state?
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Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 9:30:00 PM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/6/2008 10:30:25 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Which? John's "eternal life" or the synoptics "Kingdom of God/Heaven"?
Both.
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Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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[Deleted] - 9/8/2008 10:06:41 AM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/8/2008 10:34:26 AM
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jazzact13
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First, I've never been to a church which said that Christianity was only about all the "after we die" stuff, and that what we did here was of no importance.They constantly stressed that Christians should live like Christians in the world we live in, that how we live has an effect on people.
As such, then, McLaren's caricature of Christian's being interersted only in the afterlife is unfair and untrue. One may find the occasional separatist group that tries to live in some kind of isolated commune or bunker, but usually those are rather cultic anyway and outside of orthodox Christians.
Second, McLaren's complaints seems to come in two, rather opposite forms.
1. Christians are only interested in the afterlife.
2. Christians have been too involved in politics and social things (rather funny now, since he's some kind of 'unofficial' advisor to Obama).
In "Orthodoxy", Chesterton noted that one thing he started noticing about Christianity was how almost any stick could be used to beat it with. For example, he talked about how one person said that Christianity made men weak and sickly, and then another said that it made men bloody-thirsty warmongers.
I wonder if Chesterton ever had to deal with one person who did the beating in both directions, like McLaren is doing. How can one berate people for being uninvolved, and then berate them for being too involved?
As far as McLaren's take on 'eternal life' goes, I would point out how the John 6 passage relates 'eternal life' with being raised up on the last day, and the John 12 equates hating one's life here with getting eternal life.
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[Deleted] - 9/8/2008 10:48:41 AM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/8/2008 3:34:22 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
Can you share the context in which McLaren said Christians are too involved in politics or social things?
You mean you haven't heard McLaren and his cohorts (intentionally used word) rip into the Religious Right? Heaping criticism on them for such reasons as putting emphasis on such issues as abortion and gay marriage? Come on, emerging, wake up!! That's the things emergents do. If you didn't know that, then you're not with their program, so how emergeing are you??
quote:
I have never heard McLaren say that most Christians think Christianity is ONLY about life after death, either.
Very well, how about a rephrasing of that first point, then.
1. Christians have been primarily interested in the afterlife, and not interested in things here on earth.
Perhaps that is more accurate.
quote:
Finally, in the end, what is your biggest beef with thinking of "eternal life" as "life of the ages"?
That there is no textual support for such a reinterpretation.
The "life of the ages" is an essentially meaningless concept that McLaren fills with his own liberal and social agenda.
That McLaren's attempts to takes our eyes off of eternity and focus us primarily on the here-and-now will not result in anything good.
That Jesus and the Apostles did not denigrate life-after-death as something we shouldn't give much thought to, but set it forth as something we should consider, both as a hope and as a spur to live more godly.
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/8/2008 3:49:25 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
jazz-
I have never heard McLaren say that most Christians think Christianity is ONLY about life after death, either. He does, however, stress that this tends to be where evangelicals at least put much of the emphasis. I don't see how anyone who has been around the block a few times can deny that.
Can you share the context in which McLaren said Christians are too involved in politics or social things? I find that to be a curious statement.
Finally, in the end, what is your biggest beef with thinking of "eternal life" as "life of the ages"? As I and others have shown that seems to be the meaning of the Greek and as I have also pointed out it does not negate life after death but rather encompasses the totality of life (present and future). Why take issue with it?
peace.
emerging,
I'm an evangelical pastor who reads books by evangelicals, listens to evangelical sermons, attended three evangelical seminaries, attends evangelical training seminars, and interacts with evangelicals. I can say with all honesty that McLaren's portrayal is foreign to the evangelicalism that I know. Yes, I'm sure some do believe what McLaren accuses them of, but as Jazz pointed out, they are a small minority.
The problem is that McLaren, and those who think his portrait of evangelical doctrine is correct, have not - as you say - really been around the block. As a result they erroneously extrapolate that the beliefs of the few represent the beliefs of the majority.
The reason I asked for specific examples is because I have yet to meet an emergent that could provide those names. Why do you think that is?
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Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/8/2008 4:19:53 PM
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mcleod
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Mushead I see that you have good credentials to your resume.
quote:
The problem is that McLaren, and those who think his portrait of evangelical doctrine is correct, have not - as you say - really been around the block. As a result they erroneously extrapolate that the beliefs of the few represent the beliefs of the majority.
The reason I asked for specific examples is because I have yet to meet an emergent that could provide those names. Why do you think that is?
Why is it all right for you to do that? Yet when someone else brings up about others trash. From the evangelical who have trash in their closet. You seem to try to throw it out and go after another individual.
What doctronial issue did he say the evangelicals are total out in left field about?
One more time there was a Pastor in Colorado who was going after the gay's and lesbians tooth and nail. Until he was found guilty of the same crime. Who may I ask gave God a black eye that day?
Time after time these preachers who seem to think that God is on their side and only their side. Seem to have made a mockery out of God most of the time.
Eternal life begins here while we are here. Continues into the next life. Who you believe in determines where you have it good in the next life or a bad situation.
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[Deleted] - 9/8/2008 4:22:26 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/8/2008 4:30:44 PM
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RE: mclaren and 'eternal life' - 9/8/2008 4:42:08 PM
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jazzact13
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quote:
With good reason.
I wish there was a yawning smiley, I'd put that one here, because that was so predictable.
quote:
Look, just because you espouse to be pro-life doesn't make you politically involved or socially conscious.
And how many people are pro-life in name only, and don't do something about it? Very few, I would venture to say.
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I think what you meant to say isn't that McLaren says Christians are TOO politically active
Nope, I said what I meant to say. It is McLaren is giving mixed messages.
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but that they contradict themselves when they are (i.e. the "religious right" is pro-life and pro just war).
Only if being pro-life is contradictory to being pro-just war, which is isn't.
No more then being pro-life is contradictory to being pro-death penalty. There is no contradiction in those positions, despite how McLaren, Campolo, and Wallis try to spin it.
quote:
Um, yes there is. It has already been presented.
And it has been answered.
quote:
Really? What makes you think so? Would it surprise you that Jesus was more focused on the "here and now" moreso than eternity?
Like to see you try and justify that position. How many times does Jesus talk about Hell, judgment, those who were dead like Abraham still being alive, going away to prepare a place for us? How many of those times does He use the language of eternal life in regards to the righteous?
quote:
Living a holy life was rooted in the truth that God is putting the world back to rights (beginning in the here and now)
Oh, is that why Peter talks about this world being kept for destruction by fire? And about looking for new heavens and new earth?
quote:
If you are living more godly just to get to heaven than you miss the point.
And you miss the point of what I'm saying. I'm not making Heaven into some kind of reward for good works, that would make salvation by works and thus not by faith. I said that Heaven is used as a spur for us to live more godly, for example by the language of glory and rewards.
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[Deleted] - 9/8/2008 4:55:01 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/8/2008 7:14:31 PM
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