|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/29/2008 12:31:59 AM
|
|
|
slimon11
Posts: 230
Joined: 2/10/2008
Status: offline
|
There is someone that is not in my life anymore that I thought I had forgiven. I believed that this person was unsaved, living a sad, not so great life. When I thought that, I totally felt as I had forgiven this person.
Maybe I just felt sorry for him instead....
I recently found out that he has what seems like everything he desires in the world. After learning this person was happy and, after learning that he has a friend that professes to know Jesus (although hard to tell if that is true, as I don't see the fruit); I realized that I still need to work on forgiving this person.
I know a lack of forgiveness is not good...I won't be offended by what you say. I am just trying to better understand what is going on in my head.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/29/2008 12:47:11 AM
|
|
|
slimon11
Posts: 230
Joined: 2/10/2008
Status: offline
|
I just realized there is a helpful thread on this subject in the relationship section.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/29/2008 9:37:49 AM
|
|
|
mvic
Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline
|
Hi Slimon,
I suspect that you still hurt from whatever that person has done to you. Nothing wrong in that. Sometimes the hurt lasts for a long time and we can never forget it.
However, for your own peace of mind you must forgive that person. Even if he has never asked for forgiveness. Regardless of whether he is doing great in his life or not.
Imagine that person came to see you one day all repentent and asked for your forgiveness. Would you forgive him? Your answer should be a genuine and wholehearted: Yes.
So, having forgiven him privately in your heart; now speak to God. In your own words tell Him how much you still hurt. Ask Him to help heal that hurt. Hand over that person to God. Say: No matter what he has done to me, I forgive him and hand Him over to you God. Pray for that person. Ask God to enlighten him and make him see the truth.
By praying for that person, you can't possibly hate him anymore. And forgiving him will be easier.
God bless you.
_____________________________
Visit http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
My Book My Blog
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/29/2008 12:38:47 PM
|
|
|
terryjohn
Posts: 469
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline
|
The act of forgiveness was always conditional. If they repent forgive them, if they don't, don't!
Lu 17:4 - If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."
If their is no repentance their can be no forgiveness!
Now having said that, there are some sins done in ignorance against others and Christ on the cross prayed;
Lu 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Did those who then crucified Christ then die in their sins? I beleive forgiving another their sins against us is one thing but forgiving them may not save them but only us.
You could say that from God's perspective, if we forgive our brother his sins against us, God has no more case against the one who sinned against us and they are not under comdemnation for the sin, but they still perish, if they are themselves are unforgiving and faithless.
Now I am sure many supposed sins are ones of ignorance. Many people do and say things that unintentually upset us and in such cases there was no intention to sin against anyone and we may forgive them for sometimes the problem is with us. I mean because another does not love us the way we want, does not mean they have sinned.
The one thing God cannot do then is forgive the unforgiving, for giving grace to those who would not be gracious to others is not a righteous act.
Nevertheless, our forgiveness can then be seen from a eternal perspective in the sense all sins against us are nothing in the shadow of the kingdom to come. With this understanding, he who steals from you may be forgiven for what is it to the forgiven that they lose what can not be taken with them? Now forgiveness is not an intellectual process for the heart of the matter is the heart;
Mt 18:35 - "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Interestingly, those of us who have not suffered are quicker to forgive the abusers of others quicker than the abused can.
I don't think forgiveness actually says the sin never occured or that we can forget it, it simply means their is no retribution due.
Having said all the above there is the demand of love that says, if we love he who sins against us, we will want to save them from the condemnation of their sins.
Lu 17:3 - So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
If we cannot rebuke our brother for their sins against us, we might be content with the saving of our own souls by forgiving them knowing that unless they repent they shall perish.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/29/2008 12:59:05 PM
|
|
|
LivingParadox
Posts: 926
Joined: 2/28/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: terryjohn
The act of forgiveness was always conditional. If they repent forgive them, if they don't, don't!
Lu 17:4 - If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."
If their is no repentance their can be no forgiveness!
Now having said that, there are some sins done in ignorance against others and Christ on the cross prayed;
Lu 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Did those who then crucified Christ then die in their sins? I beleive forgiving another their sins against us is one thing but forgiving them may not save them but only us.
You could say that from God's perspective, if we forgive our brother his sins against us, God has no more case against the one who sinned against us and they are not under comdemnation for the sin, but they still perish, if they are themselves are unforgiving and faithless.
Now I am sure many supposed sins are ones of ignorance. Many people do and say things that unintentually upset us and in such cases there was no intention to sin against anyone and we may forgive them for sometimes the problem is with us. I mean because another does not love us the way we want, does not mean they have sinned.
The one thing God cannot do then is forgive the unforgiving, for giving grace to those who would not be gracious to others is not a righteous act.
Nevertheless, our forgiveness can then be seen from a eternal perspective in the sense all sins against us are nothing in the shadow of the kingdom to come. With this understanding, he who steals from you may be forgiven for what is it to the forgiven that they lose what can not be taken with them? Now forgiveness is not an intellectual process for the heart of the matter is the heart;
Mt 18:35 - "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Interestingly, those of us who have not suffered are quicker to forgive the abusers of others quicker than the abused can.
I don't think forgiveness actually says the sin never occured or that we can forget it, it simply means their is no retribution due.
Having said all the above there is the demand of love that says, if we love he who sins against us, we will want to save them from the condemnation of their sins.
Lu 17:3 - So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
If we cannot rebuke our brother for their sins against us, we might be content with the saving of our own souls by forgiving them knowing that unless they repent they shall perish.
I respectively disagree with the bolded points. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Christ released us from our sins just as we are to do for others. Are there consquences to sins sometimes, yes. But it is not for us to do the judging but for God if the other person is unrepentant. Sadly enough, they are offered forgiveness and simply choose not to accept it.
Regarding the bolded & italized comment, I agree that it is not in our nature when greatly hurt to release it, indeed it is a supernatural act prompted by the Holy Spirit. And yes, it is often easier for those on the outside of an offenses to make trite comments about "just forgive them". With that said to be forgiven of our sins we must release others too. (Remember the servant forgiven the huge debt that demanded the small debt from another?)
Ask anyone who has gone through a hard providence caused by another -- sometimes it's having to forgive the person daily and sometimes when we can't seem to do it on our own it's lifting the prayer "Lord, make me willing to be willing to forgive" -- but the spirit of forgiveness is there. If both parties can participate in forgiveness it is best. But if the offender remains unrependant we are still to forgive them. Forgiveness brings healing not necessarily for the offender but the person harmed.
< Message edited by LivingParadox -- 11/29/2008 1:05:55 PM >
_____________________________
Kites rise highest against the wind - not with it.
~Winston Churchill
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/29/2008 1:00:44 PM
|
|
|
AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
Status: offline
|
Terryjohn,
I understand those verses, but I have a question, maybe a couple.
A few of those verses, apply to a brother, which means, a Christian, when one has sinned against us, we should bring it to his/her attention, so they can be restored, to God, its for their own good. But that does not mean if, they do not repent, we "should not" forgive them. Scripture does not say that. We are taught by Christ, to forgive and to pray for that person.
Lets say, a person is a Christian, and yu have another who is not, and the one who isnt a Christian, sins against the Christian, hurts them badly....can you show me Scripture, where God teaches us, that we are not to forgive until that person repents? If that person is not Christian, how is he/she even going to begin to know what it means to repent? Its our forgiveness of that person, and our kindness toward that person, that shows them that we have a Higher Power who lives within us, its then, that the person will stop and think twice about what they have done.
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/29/2008 1:14:49 PM
|
|
|
mvic
Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline
|
Hi TerryJohn,
You say: "If there is no repentance there can be no forgiveness!"
Someone hurt me very badly years ago. That person has now moved on to another town far away and I have not seen them since. They probably don't care whether I have forgiven them or not; or how much they hurt me. I doubt they even think about repentence.
I see everyday the consequences of that hurt.
Am I to hold their sin and not forgive them? How will that help me?
Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sinned against us.
_____________________________
Visit http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
My Book My Blog
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/29/2008 1:40:53 PM
|
|
|
humbleinspirit
Posts: 17763
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
Status: offline
|
Forgiveness is a choice, not a feeling. You can still have bad feelings towards someone, but you make a choice to forgive instead.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/29/2008 1:44:10 PM
|
|
|
mvic
Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/17/2008
Status: offline
|
Hi AbbyGrace,
I suppose you're right. The Holy Spirit can teach us to forgive - if we ask.
There are a lot of threads on forgiveness, I think, because there is a lot of hurt in this world today.
Jesus used to greet people with the words: Peace be with you. But sadly I don't think this world will ever know Peace until it learns to forgive.
It's as if human nature has been programmed to seek vengeance, punishment and retribution. Forgiveness does not come easy to people.
Lord knows I've tried; and with His help, I'll slowly learn to forgive.
_____________________________
Visit http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
My Book My Blog
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/29/2008 1:52:29 PM
|
|
|
AbbyGrace
Posts: 660
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Hi AbbyGrace,
I suppose you're right. The Holy Spirit can teach us to forgive - if we ask.
There are a lot of threads on forgiveness, I think, because there is a lot of hurt in this world today.
Jesus used to greet people with the words: Peace be with you. But sadly I don't think this world will ever know Peace until it learns to forgive.
It's as if human nature has been programmed to seek vengeance, punishment and retribution. Forgiveness does not come easy to people.
Lord knows I've tried; and with His help, I'll slowly learn to forgive.
You are absolutely right, and its something that I have had to ask....there was a time, that I ask the Lord if I had truly forgiven this person, because I was having so many mixed feelings and emotions, but He always brings it to my attention, that we dont live by what we feel. And it always helps me to know, that He tells us, not to seek revenge, for He is our Avenger, and no weapon formed against us will ever prosper. And its not that i want to see anything bad happen to the person, but i do know, that God has my back :) Instead, I see it as a spiritual warfare, and I pray for that person's salvation. I wont lie, there was a time, when I wanted revenge, and really thought about it, but I stopped and prayed, and ask the Lord to help me with this, that I wanted to forgive, but didnt know how, it was then, that He assured me, that I had forgiven this person, because all those bad feelings left, and I had a sense of freedom from within me. I believe, it all comes down to us asking, and allowing Him to show us and guide us through it step by step. And allow Him to heal us from the hurt.
_____________________________
Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/29/2008 6:48:42 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 2082
Status: offline
|
I don't know about the other thread (in the relationship forum) but there are vastly different understandings of forgiveness among those on this forum.
I do not think we are able to forgive or should forgive an unrepentant person. God does not. God holds forgiveness for ALL mankind but a person is not forgiven until they repent and are willing to receive what God has done for them.
We cannot forgive in any other way. We are NOT to hold on to bitterness. We are not to bear a grudge. We are to hold forgiveness in our hearts for those who are in sin. But we CANNOT forgive them UNTIL they repent. That is God's way. And my way can be no other. (To do or say otherwise is to think and act as if I know more than God.)
When Jesus prayed from the cross, He did NOT forgive. He prayed that His Father forgive. That is what we can do as well. Pray that our Father forgive them which is the same as praying that they be brought to repentance.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/29/2008 11:43:03 PM
|
|
|
slimon11
Posts: 230
Joined: 2/10/2008
Status: offline
|
Thank you for your answers guys.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/29/2008 11:46:23 PM
|
|
|
humbleinspirit
Posts: 17763
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
Status: offline
|
quote:
I do not think we are able to forgive or should forgive an unrepentant person. God does not. God holds forgiveness for ALL mankind but a person is not forgiven until they repent and are willing to receive what God has done for them.
What about when Jesus was on the cross and said "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they do?"
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/29/2008 11:48:18 PM
|
|
|
humbleinspirit
Posts: 17763
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: slimon11
Thank you for your answers guys.
You're welcome Slimon11!
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/30/2008 8:09:01 AM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 2195
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
We can forgive, it does not mean we forget. Be shrewd as serpants and gentle as doves.
Forgiveness does not mean we become dumb or ignore the ways of those who live in this world. Human nature does test the waters of mankind. Ho far can we go with this person or that person. How many times will they tolerate being hurt in the name of Christ? Jesus warns of this. "Shake the dust from your feet". Repentance is required. If they show know repentance, God is not through with them yet. He maybe waiting a while for whatever reason. Forgiving people to readily without repentance just means we told them their behavior was acceptable. Christ does not tell us this. He told us to repent.
Not forgiving someone doesn't mean we hold bitterness in our hearts or act unbecomingly to them. We love them through it at a great distance. There is a difference between that and ignoring the hurt.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/30/2008 11:28:40 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 2082
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
I don't know about the other thread (in the relationship forum) but there are vastly different understandings of forgiveness among those on this forum.
I do not think we are able to forgive or should forgive an unrepentant person. God does not. God holds forgiveness for ALL mankind but a person is not forgiven until they repent and are willing to receive what God has done for them.
We cannot forgive in any other way. We are NOT to hold on to bitterness. We are not to bear a grudge. We are to hold forgiveness in our hearts for those who are in sin. But we CANNOT forgive them UNTIL they repent. That is God's way. And my way can be no other. (To do or say otherwise is to think and act as if I know more than God.)
When Jesus prayed from the cross, He did NOT forgive. He prayed that His Father forgive. That is what we can do as well. Pray that our Father forgive them which is the same as praying that they be brought to repentance.
I dont agree, Scripture says different.
Obviously we are both basing our view on what God says. Do you care to explain what you see in scripture that confirms your view?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 11/30/2008 11:30:31 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 2082
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
quote:
I do not think we are able to forgive or should forgive an unrepentant person. God does not. God holds forgiveness for ALL mankind but a person is not forgiven until they repent and are willing to receive what God has done for them.
What about when Jesus was on the cross and said "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they do?"
This is Jesus' prayer to His Father. We can (and should) pray for the forgiveness of others which in essence is praying that they repent. But this verse does not say anyone is forgiven.
Where does God forgive apart from repentance?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 12/1/2008 12:39:58 AM
|
|
|
growingseed
Posts: 148
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline
|
Something that i learned about the Lord is that he is always continuing to forgive me when i fall, and love me both. This is what needs to be passed on unconditionally, we don't choose who to love or forgive, it's not cut and paste love, but praying and forgiving. Matt 18:25.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 12/1/2008 9:18:43 AM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 1212
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
We forgive because we are forgiven.
We forgive because Jesus Christ suffered in our place, and for Christ's sake, God has forgiven us. Is there anything anyone can or has done against you that is equal to what we have each done towards God? And yet, God has, for Christ's sake, forgiven us.
God's forgiveness of us is given freely, fully and continuously. Our forgiveness is eternal and it is a certainty. We did nothing to merit forgiveness, for there is nothing we could do to merit it.
As God has forgiven us, so we forgive one another. "One another" means that just as we forgive one today, so we may need the others forgiveness tomorrow. We forgive each other. I forgive you, and you forgive me. We are to forgive freely, and without compulsion
To hold unforgiveness in our hearts can only be a sign of pride on our part. It is to take into our own hands that which belongs only to God..."vengeance is mine, saith the Lord". It can only mean that we have not truly understood the depth of our own depravity and the cost to our God and Savior to redeem us from it, and the reality that still God has forgiven us, for Christ's sake.
1 John 2:12
"I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name"
Ephesians 1:7
"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace"
Colossians 1:14
"in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins"
Colossians 3:13
"Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you"
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 12/1/2008 10:56:47 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 2082
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
quote:
I do not think we are able to forgive or should forgive an unrepentant person. God does not. God holds forgiveness for ALL mankind but a person is not forgiven until they repent and are willing to receive what God has done for them.
What about when Jesus was on the cross and said "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they do?"
This is Jesus' prayer to His Father. We can (and should) pray for the forgiveness of others which in essence is praying that they repent. But this verse does not say anyone is forgiven.
Where does God forgive apart from repentance?
Can you show me where Scripture states, "We are only to forgive, if that person repents."
Jesus says, "If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times saying, 'I repent', forgive him." Luke 17:3,4
This is also found in Matthew 18. And in addition, in Jesus' teaching on forgiveness in the same chapter, his teaching is clearly forgiveness based on repentance.
And in I John 1:9 God's word says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Our God does not forgive unrepentant men. Why should we 'think' we are holier than God and do otherwise? We are not to hold bitterness in our hearts or bear a grudge. We are to be ready and willing to forgive, just as the father of the prodigal son was, but we do not and cannot forgive apart from repentance because God does not.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: the unforgiven people in our lifes - 12/1/2008 11:03:55 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 2082
Status: offline
|
[quote: URF]
To hold unforgiveness in our hearts can only be a sign of pride on our part. It is to take into our own hands that which belongs only to God..."vengeance is mine, saith the Lord". It can only mean that we have not truly understood the depth of our own depravity and the cost to our God and Savior to redeem us from it, and the reality that still God has forgiven us, for Christ's sake. [/quote]
OK, UR, here we go again. We are not talking about holding unforgiveness. We are doing as God does---it is those who forgive apart from repentance who are taking into their hands ('being holier than God') what belongs to God. Those who truly understand their depravity KNOW that repentance is the condition on which we receive the forgiveness of God. Apart from it we are NOT redeemed. To believe what you are saying is to believe in universal salvation---all are forgiven because Jesus died for the sin of the world. No, only those who believe God and have received the forgiveness He offers by repenting of their sin are forgiven, redeemed, saved. That is the gospel. Sorry, bro, but how can we be so far apart here?
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
