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views - 11/19/2008 11:57:36 AM
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rweb32
Posts: 3
Joined: 11/14/2008
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Personally, I have a hard time believing in the Bible word for word. I think it was a God inspired, much needed, response for why we are here and where we came from. A simple response for simple people. Not saying at all that the people of that time were emotionally simpler, just that their knowledge base was certainly not up to our present form. I believe in the Big Bang Theory. I also believe this in no way makes me not a faithful person. I believe that God gave us the power of science to figure out things on our own. Had God explained the Big Bang thousands of years ago, the people would in no way have the knowledge base to understand it. Which is why he told them exactly what they needed to hear. My reasoning is as follows: The big bang was the beginning of creation for all that we know. It set everything in motion up to now and in the forever future. The theory is practically proven. But what made the big bang happen?? I believe God made it all happen. It could have been a snap of his finger or just a thought that set it all off. Something has to be the bigger power out there. Space comes to an end somewhere and it’s God that is holding the sphere in the palm of his hand. I believe the Bible was also used as a way of lawless governing. The governing authorities liked the book because it’s believers would generally “do the right thing” without the need of forceful governing. Any thoughts?
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RE: views - 11/19/2008 12:16:41 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1226
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
Status: online
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Why should we even believe the speculation of the 'big bang'? You say, 'I think it was a God inspired...'. Genesis 1:3 says, 'Then God said, 'Let there be light"; and there was light...'; no mention of even a ripple in eternal space never the last a 'bang'.
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: views - 11/19/2008 5:33:36 PM
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jn1010lf
Posts: 351
Joined: 4/20/2005
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Hello rweb32
You're pointing out the fact that the Bible generally does not prove well scientifically. Our human reasoning cannot prove that the creation came into being just like it says in Genesis.
So, how does one come to believe? It's mainly by one's changed life. Millions of people have been changed in ways that could be nothing other than of God. How about when people are hopelessly sick and are healed?
How many Christians have you observed. Have you gotten to know many that are of strong faith?
How often do you study the Bible with the desire or your heart to find truth? If you hardly break the pages, you can't expect to comment on it's authenticity.
All of God's truths come by divine revelaion, that is the Holy Spirit etches it into the heart.
So, I can't answer your questions objectively. You will have to search for yourself. I do know this. Manny people have asked God to show Himself true and guess what ... Divine revelation that needs no objective proof.
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RE: views - 11/19/2008 7:16:50 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 910
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rweb32
Personally, I have a hard time believing in the Bible word for word. I think it was a God inspired, much needed, response for why we are here and where we came from. A simple response for simple people. Not saying at all that the people of that time were emotionally simpler, just that their knowledge base was certainly not up to our present form. I believe in the Big Bang Theory. I also believe this in no way makes me not a faithful person. I believe that God gave us the power of science to figure out things on our own. Had God explained the Big Bang thousands of years ago, the people would in no way have the knowledge base to understand it. Which is why he told them exactly what they needed to hear. My reasoning is as follows: The big bang was the beginning of creation for all that we know. It set everything in motion up to now and in the forever future. The theory is practically proven. But what made the big bang happen?? I believe God made it all happen. It could have been a snap of his finger or just a thought that set it all off. Something has to be the bigger power out there. Space comes to an end somewhere and it’s God that is holding the sphere in the palm of his hand. I believe the Bible was also used as a way of lawless governing. The governing authorities liked the book because it’s believers would generally “do the right thing” without the need of forceful governing. Any thoughts?
The theory is practically proven? I don't think so.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: views - 11/20/2008 10:06:54 PM
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MemorableWoman
Posts: 21
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In order to truly understanding the bible you must have the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit you cannot fully understand it. He gives us understandng. Who bettert to give us understanding, to tell us what everything means then the Holy Spirit who is God.
_____________________________
" These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."
John 16:33
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RE: views - 11/21/2008 10:06:06 AM
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john_mark
Posts: 528
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rweb32
Personally, I have a hard time believing in the Bible word for word. I think it was a God inspired, much needed, response for why we are here and where we came from. A simple response for simple people. Not saying at all that the people of that time were emotionally simpler, just that their knowledge base was certainly not up to our present form. I believe in the Big Bang Theory. I also believe this in no way makes me not a faithful person. I believe that God gave us the power of science to figure out things on our own.
your post appears to present the argument that the bible was written for a specific time to a people with a limited knowledge base. as man's knowledge about his universe has grown, that knowledge makes inferior what was written previously with the bible.
so do you see science as an equal authority to God's word? or do you understand science to be a greater revelation than the bible, at least in the areas of science?
where scripture and science might differ, to which do you give credence? science in it's most basic form is verifiable and repeatable, once science leaves that realm and moves into the theoretical realm, do you still believe in it as fact or reasoned thought?
and what would you believe when science wonders into morality, for example when it takes views on when life begins, and what is human life?
quote:
The governing authorities liked the book because it’s believers would generally “do the right thing” without the need of forceful governing. Any thoughts?
so is that why here in america we are doing every thing possible to follow the book in our government? or if we go back to the times of the book is that why romans destroyed jerusalem in 70 ad ?
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RE: views - 11/21/2008 10:14:37 AM
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d4nnyb0y02
Posts: 318
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You have a hard time believing God's Word because of faith. So, you should pray for faith in this area... that's what I do. We ALL require faith sometimes more than others. The Bible is an accumulation of God's Word, and it can be trusted. The world will come up with it's own ideas of how things happened (and are going to happen), but God has given us His Word. You will either trust it, or you won't. We will either have faith, or we won't. Those who ask, receive, and those who seek... find.
The only "big bang" is the one that has yet to come.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Our Creation happened just as the Lord had Moses write it down. God made man, and woman, fully formed, without the knowledge of good or evil, but gave them the choice to remain under his protective wing... or to taste of knowledge. Many people think that they are tasting something good when they contimplate the big bang... and evolution. They feel intellectual... but in the end, it is foolishness, and vain imagination. We have God's Word. We don't have to imagine how we came to be... because we already know how we came to be. So, let our imaginations be about, around, from, and to God's Word. Let it hedge us ahead and behind. It doesn't fail us... it doesn't fake us out or lie. He tells the truth, all the time, guarunteed.
It can be said, "Christians believe all kinds of things." I have heard the arguments, I have been in the arguements. You can't stop people from believing what they *want* to believe. Therefore, *everyone* including Christians are going to believe different things. But, there is only one right answer when it comes to how we were created, and where we are going. God's Word tells us how it was done. Study it, and believe.
Blessings.
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: views - 11/21/2008 10:26:17 AM
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Luvinme
Posts: 72
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: Ontario
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It is hard to believe everything in the Bible when you have limited understanding. I don't think anyone can say they have all the answers. Faith in Christ is believing as a child believes his parents even when they don't understand why they are telling him not to cross a road.
It is good to question things and science and how life is for us and why, but God is our way to true understanding and only believing in Him partly is double-minded and unstable in all its ways.
_____________________________
As a sinner we have to accept that it is not easy to truly touch the will of God unless we have experiences that challenge the depths of our own will to show whose strength we decide to have faith in to overcome it.
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RE: views - 11/21/2008 10:26:25 AM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1981
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
The only "big bang" is the one that has yet to come.
No, you're forgetting the one God used to create the universe several billion years ago. That actually happened.
quote:
Our Creation happened just as the Lord had Moses write it down. God made man, and woman, fully formed, without the knowledge of good or evil, but gave them the choice to remain under his protective wing... or to taste of knowledge. Many people think that they are tasting something good when they contimplate the big bang... and evolution. They feel intellectual... but in the end, it is foolishness, and vain imagination. We have God's Word. We don't have to imagine how we came to be... because we already know how we came to be. So, let our imaginations be about, around, from, and to God's Word. Let it hedge us ahead and behind. It doesn't fail us... it doesn't fake us out or lie. He tells the truth, all the time, guarunteed.
Its interesting that even the Jews in the ancient times didn't believe in the creationism account in a literal sense. Yet it was their ancestors who wrote it. God always tells the truth, but He might have a good reason for letting man include this in the Bible other than as a literal history lesson. There has to be a happy-medium between science and faith. Otherwise, the world He created would be different from what we see.
That's enough eduction for one day. Doesn't this thread belong as part of the science & origins forum?
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RE: views - 11/21/2008 10:33:39 AM
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d4nnyb0y02
Posts: 318
Joined: 9/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Luvinme
It is hard to believe everything in the Bible when you have limited understanding. I don't think anyone can say they have all the answers. Faith in Christ is believing as a child believes his parents even when they don't understand why they are telling him not to cross a road.
It is good to question things and science and how life is for us and why, but God is our way to true understanding and only believing in Him partly is double-minded and unstable in all its ways.
Amen. People who believe in the big bang and in the Theory of Evolution always say they believe in it because of "science." That isn't true at all, and sadly, they are deeply deceived. The reason they believe in a big bang and the Theory of Evolution is because they have *chosen* not to have a foundation in the Word of God.
God created man, and woman, fully formed. When God proves this to every human being who has ever lived on That Great Day, it will prove to be 100%, without compromise, scientific. Big bang never happened. Anyone who believes it did believes a fairytale.
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: views - 11/21/2008 12:13:10 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1226
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
Status: online
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Define 'speculation', 'revelation' and 'evidence' first. Georges Lemaître(Friedman was a mathematician and Catholic priest who neither worked with astronomical data nor cared whether his theory was a description of physical reality. Arthur Eddington made sure that Lemaître got a hearing in the scientific community.)proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, although he called it his 'hypothesis of the primeval atom'. The framework for the model relies on Albert Einstein's General Relativity as formulated by Alexander Friedmann.
The issue is not whether 'creation' is valid; the issue is whether we can trust either.
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: views - 11/21/2008 12:44:28 PM
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terryjohn
Posts: 469
Joined: 3/23/2007
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Everything appears imperfect when we are imperfect. Even if scripture where perfect, men would have to say otherwise simply because they would then believe it was a conspiracy. Then gain even if scripture can be proven to be what it claims to be, the word fo God, men would still not beleive becasue it is not a problem with the intellect of man but the will of men. Men simply do not like the consequences of faith. This is why many, many governments have had the bible band or burnt because it undermines their own right to govern men.
Scripture is not of God because of its factual nature, it fine sounding words but because it transforms men, confronts evil and enpowers men and women everywhere to righteousness for the love of Christ.
I would be very careful about relying too much on your own understanding for too many of the most evil men have done that and inflicted great evil on others.
The thing is God would be doing men no good, if He had willed that scripture be 100% fact that could be independantly proven by science, for then our condemnation would be certain and there could then be no room for grace as we like satan would have committed the unforgiveable sin. Scripture's value is in its results and when we see its history we can only say, if any book has ever been sent from God this must surely be it.
I care little about the big bang for in it men seek excuses for their evil and turn their back on the truth of Gods righteousness and love. All this leads to death and a lot more suffering for their fellow men.
I must admitt that creation out of nothing into something must have made one big noise. You could say it was the first noise but what does it matter when so many are dying with out hope today?
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RE: views - 11/21/2008 1:15:05 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1945
Joined: 9/26/2007
Status: online
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Hi, Rweb32, and welcome to the forum! There are lots of nice people here to hang out with, and many of them are serious about their faith. So you've come to a good place to ask questions. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: rweb32
Personally, I have a hard time believing in the Bible word for word. I think it was a God inspired, much needed, response for why we are here and where we came from.
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
God-breathed is often translated as inspired. From God's heart/mind to the hand of a man who wrote it down. The above verse says "all" Scripture, so if one bit isn't inspired by God then this verse isn't true and thus the Bible is wrong and can't be trusted. It's an either/or situation, and every person has to figure out which it is. It's either all inspired by God or it's a lie.
We can guess what is true, or we can go to God's inerrant Word and know some things are true. If it is true, and I bet my life it is.
quote:
A simple response for simple people.
Everyone is simple in comparison to a infinite God who created everything and knows everything.
quote:
Not saying at all that the people of that time were emotionally simpler, just that their knowledge base was certainly not up to our present form.
According to the modern science of aerodynamics the bumblebee can't fly. Medicine is still in its infancy. They just discovered for sure this year that there's a magnetic "tube" that occasionally opens up between the earth and the sun, but it's not understood yet. The dynamics of solar prominance twisting and gravity and the auroras on the planet Saturn are not understood. We still know so little.
When Job demanded God answer His questions, God spoke to Job, told him to stand up (maybe he'd fallen over? I would have) and answer Him like a man. Then God asked,
"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?"
Job 38: 4,5 The list of questions goes on and on.
Job gave the only rational response I think anyone could have against this questioning from God:
I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
Job shut his mouth. He got the bigger picture: who are we to peck at God's ankles? He is God, all-powerful and all-knowing. He keeps the stars in their orbits, and created the x-ray blasts from Black Holes that we've only recently discovered and still don't understand. He is terrifying - and yet He calls us to be His beloved children. It boggles the mind.
quote:
I believe in the Big Bang Theory. I also believe this in no way makes me not a faithful person. I believe that God gave us the power of science to figure out things on our own.
Yo're right. The Scientific Revolution was started by Christians who figured a knowable God had created a knowable universe. They were right. All science is is observing and measuring what God created and figuring out how it works.
quote:
Had God explained the Big Bang thousands of years ago, the people would in no way have the knowledge base to understand it.
We still don't understand it.
quote:
Which is why he told them exactly what they needed to hear.
And He tells us exactly what we need to hear - it hasn't changed: we were made by a good God and we fell into sin. God became a man and died to pay for sin in our place so we can have life in His place.
quote:
My reasoning is as follows: The big bang was the beginning of creation for all that we know. It set everything in motion up to now and in the forever future. The theory is practically proven.
Scientific Method is built on the premise that given the same circumstances you'll get the same result. It has to be repeatable. You can't repeat a historical incident, so it's history, not science.
quote:
But what made the big bang happen?? I believe God made it all happen. It could have been a snap of his finger or just a thought that set it all off. Something has to be the bigger power out there. Space comes to an end somewhere and it’s God that is holding the sphere in the palm of his hand .
Yeah, it says in Genesis: God spoke and light was. It happened. Funny to us, because we don't understand it.
quote:
I believe the Bible was also used as a way of lawless governing. The governing authorities liked the book because it’s believers would generally “do the right thing” without the need of forceful governing. Any thoughts?
God included in His Word knowledge and power so we could govern ourselves. But He also gave us ecclesiasical authority (the Aaronic and later Melchisedekian Priesthood and then the Church) and civil authority (governments, including courts) for teaching and protection from those who couldn't govern themselves. I think it's an important piece of the pie but not the whole pie. The key is Jesus and what He did and why.
I don't think God is offended by a person coming to Him and asking Him questions or trying to experiment to find out how something works. We're made in His image and have a broken part of that intellect and desire to know things. When we realize we are the clay and He is the potter, it's easy to say, "Why is this?"But when we demand like Job did, God puts us in our place - the place of being His beloved child who wants to know and not just throw mud at Him because we think we're so hot. As Job found out, we're not hot at all.
Our own experiences can make it hard to realize we are a cherished son or daughter who is welcome to climb into His lap, get a cuddle, and respectfully ask what's on our mind. He has good answers, but it might be to a more important question. It's for love's sake, and we can trust Him.
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: views - 11/21/2008 3:25:00 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1981
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
According to the modern science of aerodynamics the bumblebee can't fly.
Not true.
From a simple wikipedia search:
quote:
According to 20th century folklore, the laws of aerodynamics prove that the bumblebee should be incapable of flight, as it does not have the capacity (in terms of wing size or beat per second) to achieve flight with the degree of wing loading necessary. Not being aware of scientists 'proving' it cannot fly, the bumblebee succeeds under "the power of its own ignorance". The origin of this myth has been difficult to pin down with any certainty. John McMasters recounted an anecdote about an unnamed Swiss aerodynamicist at a dinner party who performed some rough calculations and concluded, presumably in jest, that according to the equations, bumblebees cannot fly. In later years McMasters has backed away from this origin, suggesting that there could be multiple sources, and that the earliest he has found was a reference in the 1934 French book Le vol des insectes by M. Magnan. Magnan is reported to have written that he and a M. Saint-Lague had applied the equations of air resistance to insects and found that their flight was impossible, but that "One shouldn't be surprised that the results of the calculations don't square with reality".
It is believed that the calculations which purported to show that bumblebees cannot fly are based upon a simplified linear treatment of oscillating aerofoils. The method assumes small amplitude oscillations without flow separation. This ignores the effect of dynamic stall, an airflow separation inducing a large vortex above the wing, which briefly produces several times the lift of the aerofoil in regular flight. More sophisticated aerodynamic analysis shows that the bumblebee can fly because its wings encounter dynamic stall in every oscillation cycle.
This knowledge has been around for a while now, too.
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RE: views - 11/21/2008 5:24:58 PM
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bravjim
Posts: 395
Joined: 10/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: rweb32
Personally, I have a hard time believing in the Bible word for word. I think it was a God inspired, much needed, response for why we are here and where we came from. A simple response for simple people. Not saying at all that the people of that time were emotionally simpler, just that their knowledge base was certainly not up to our present form. I believe in the Big Bang Theory. I also believe this in no way makes me not a faithful person. I believe that God gave us the power of science to figure out things on our own.
your post appears to present the argument that the bible was written for a specific time to a people with a limited knowledge base. as man's knowledge about his universe has grown, that knowledge makes inferior what was written previously with the bible.
so do you see science as an equal authority to God's word? or do you understand science to be a greater revelation than the bible, at least in the areas of science?
where scripture and science might differ, to which do you give credence? science in it's most basic form is verifiable and repeatable, once science leaves that realm and moves into the theoretical realm, do you still believe in it as fact or reasoned thought?
and what would you believe when science wonders into morality, for example when it takes views on when life begins, and what is human life?
quote:
The governing authorities liked the book because it’s believers would generally “do the right thing” without the need of forceful governing. Any thoughts?
so is that why here in america we are doing every thing possible to follow the book in our government? or if we go back to the times of the book is that why romans destroyed jerusalem in 70 ad ?
It's funny that you ask about science's position on when life begins, because anyone who really knows science will say that life begins when cells begin to divide. That is why they call plant life life. So, when does life begin according to science in animals? At conception, because that is when cells begin to divide in a fetus.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: views - 11/21/2008 5:29:48 PM
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bravjim
Posts: 395
Joined: 10/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rweb32
Personally, I have a hard time believing in the Bible word for word. I think it was a God inspired, much needed, response for why we are here and where we came from. A simple response for simple people. Not saying at all that the people of that time were emotionally simpler, just that their knowledge base was certainly not up to our present form. I believe in the Big Bang Theory. I also believe this in no way makes me not a faithful person. I believe that God gave us the power of science to figure out things on our own. Had God explained the Big Bang thousands of years ago, the people would in no way have the knowledge base to understand it. Which is why he told them exactly what they needed to hear. My reasoning is as follows: The big bang was the beginning of creation for all that we know. It set everything in motion up to now and in the forever future. The theory is practically proven. But what made the big bang happen?? I believe God made it all happen. It could have been a snap of his finger or just a thought that set it all off. Something has to be the bigger power out there. Space comes to an end somewhere and it’s God that is holding the sphere in the palm of his hand. I believe the Bible was also used as a way of lawless governing. The governing authorities liked the book because it’s believers would generally “do the right thing” without the need of forceful governing. Any thoughts?
I cannot completely disagree with what you are saying here. While I believe that God is responsible for creation, I cannot say for sure that the account given in Genesis was something that Moses wrote so that the people could understand, or the tradition that was handed down from generation to generation. If the big bang theory is based in truth, then we still have to give God the credit for creating the big ball of light, as well as casting the stars throughout the sky. We have to give Him the credit for creating life out of non living materials, and for making such a wide variety of life.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: views - 11/21/2008 6:39:30 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1945
Joined: 9/26/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
According to the modern science of aerodynamics the bumblebee can't fly.
Not true.
From a simple wikipedia search:
quote:
According to 20th century folklore, the laws of aerodynamics prove that the bumblebee should be incapable of flight, as it does not have the capacity (in terms of wing size or beat per second) to achieve flight with the degree of wing loading necessary. Not being aware of scientists 'proving' it cannot fly, the bumblebee succeeds under "the power of its own ignorance". The origin of this myth has been difficult to pin down with any certainty. John McMasters recounted an anecdote about an unnamed Swiss aerodynamicist at a dinner party who performed some rough calculations and concluded, presumably in jest, that according to the equations, bumblebees cannot fly. In later years McMasters has backed away from this origin, suggesting that there could be multiple sources, and that the earliest he has found was a reference in the 1934 French book Le vol des insectes by M. Magnan. Magnan is reported to have written that he and a M. Saint-Lague had applied the equations of air resistance to insects and found that their flight was impossible, but that "One shouldn't be surprised that the results of the calculations don't square with reality".
It is believed that the calculations which purported to show that bumblebees cannot fly are based upon a simplified linear treatment of oscillating aerofoils. The method assumes small amplitude oscillations without flow separation. This ignores the effect of dynamic stall, an airflow separation inducing a large vortex above the wing, which briefly produces several times the lift of the aerofoil in regular flight. More sophisticated aerodynamic analysis shows that the bumblebee can fly because its wings encounter dynamic stall in every oscillation cycle.
This knowledge has been around for a while now, too.
Awesome! Thank you, TorchHeart!
OT for this thread but may be of interest to people interested in physics and aerodynamics: an article from Cornell, a reputable name in science, says that the math for disputing the long-standing myth that bumblebees can't fly should soon be established (printed in 2000). So in 2000 it had not been proven yet in this major research institution.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/chronicle/00/3.30.00/insect_flight.html
But the main point I was making and I'm sure you'll agree was that we humans don't know very much compared to an all-knowing God.
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: views - 11/22/2008 4:16:33 PM
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jmjphe
Posts: 102
Joined: 4/29/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
life begins when cells begin to divide. That is why they call plant life life. So, when does life begin according to science in animals? At conception, because that is when cells begin to divide in a fetus.
Wow..I never knew that. Cool
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RE: views - 11/23/2008 10:33:19 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 876
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bravjim
It's funny that you ask about science's position on when life begins, because anyone who really knows science will say that life begins when cells begin to divide. That is why they call plant life life. So, when does life begin according to science in animals? At conception, because that is when cells begin to divide in a fetus.
"Anyone who really knows science"?
I don't know very much about science, but I know about single-celled organisms, which apparently do not jive with what people who really know their science claim to know.
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RE: views - 11/23/2008 3:04:26 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1981
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deermousie
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
quote:
According to the modern science of aerodynamics the bumblebee can't fly.
Not true.
From a simple wikipedia search:
quote:
According to 20th century folklore, the laws of aerodynamics prove that the bumblebee should be incapable of flight, as it does not have the capacity (in terms of wing size or beat per second) to achieve flight with the degree of wing loading necessary. Not being aware of scientists 'proving' it cannot fly, the bumblebee succeeds under "the power of its own ignorance". The origin of this myth has been difficult to pin down with any certainty. John McMasters recounted an anecdote about an unnamed Swiss aerodynamicist at a dinner party who performed some rough calculations and concluded, presumably in jest, that according to the equations, bumblebees cannot fly. In later years McMasters has backed away from this origin, suggesting that there could be multiple sources, and that the earliest he has found was a reference in the 1934 French book Le vol des insectes by M. Magnan. Magnan is reported to have written that he and a M. Saint-Lague had applied the equations of air resistance to insects and found that their flight was impossible, but that "One shouldn't be surprised that the results of the calculations don't square with reality".
It is believed that the calculations which purported to show that bumblebees cannot fly are based upon a simplified linear treatment of oscillating aerofoils. The method assumes small amplitude oscillations without flow separation. This ignores the effect of dynamic stall, an airflow separation inducing a large vortex above the wing, which briefly produces several times the lift of the aerofoil in regular flight. More sophisticated aerodynamic analysis shows that the bumblebee can fly because its wings encounter dynamic stall in every oscillation cycle.
This knowledge has been around for a while now, too.
Awesome! Thank you, TorchHeart!
OT for this thread but may be of interest to people interested in physics and aerodynamics: an article from Cornell, a reputable name in science, says that the math for disputing the long-standing myth that bumblebees can't fly should soon be established (printed in 2000). So in 2000 it had not been proven yet in this major research institution.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/chronicle/00/3.30.00/insect_flight.html
But the main point I was making and I'm sure you'll agree was that we humans don't know very much compared to an all-knowing God.
Actually, it had.
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/March00/APS_Wang.hrs.html
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RE: views - 11/23/2008 3:22:43 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7605
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
I don't know very much about science, but I know about single-celled organisms, which apparently do not jive with what people who really know their science claim to know.
Which also divide; your point?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: views - 11/23/2008 11:01:18 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 876
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I don't know very much about science, but I know about single-celled organisms, which apparently do not jive with what people who really know their science claim to know.
Which also divide; your point?
They only are alive when they're dividing?
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RE: views - 11/24/2008 12:17:49 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7605
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
They only are alive when they're dividing?
If they didn't divide, no they wouldn't be considered alive.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: views - 11/24/2008 1:10:12 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 876
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
They only are alive when they're dividing?
If they didn't divide, no they wouldn't be considered alive.
And yet, they are single-celled organisms. Their act of division being construed as the start of their life would seem rather odd.
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RE: views - 11/24/2008 1:20:04 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7605
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
And yet, they are single-celled organisms. Their act of division being construed as the start of their life would seem rather odd. [/quote
Actually, you seem very confused here. That is precisely how a single cell organism
starts' it's life - by the act of cell division.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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